# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/161 "2014-12-23T07:34:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Hey, I can bring the horse to water - making him drink is another matter. I already showed that, contrary to fivethirtyeight’s claim, it is not “nearly always” that the prosecutor in a state grand jury fails to get an indictment. 4-5% “no true bills” in the article I cited make this a falsehood - it is not “incredibly rare”. Your cites refer to Staten Island and New York areas, (and they are pointing to **some** years) 538 looks at the federal level and that the numbers are not much applicable to police men, and that was the point. So yeah, you are just grasping at straws. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/162 "2014-12-23T07:35:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your cites refer to Staten Island and New York areas And the whole NY state - statewide. You really should read closer. As in: “That includes “superior court informations,” which don’t go to a grand jury. **Excluding SCIs, 5.1 percent of actions on Staten Island resulted in “no true bill,” and 4.3 percent did in all of New York State**.” > [@](#): > > 538 looks at the federal level No, 538 looked at the federal grand juries. Not all grand juries in the US. Do you understand that there is a difference between a “federal grand jury” and a state-level grand jury? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/163 "2014-12-23T07:43:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And the whole NY state - statewide. You really should read closer. > [@](#): > > In some years, they said, grand jurors in some boroughs voted not to indict in more than 60 percent of cases in which Legal Aid clients testified. “some boroughs” = statewide in Terr’s world it seems. Also “some years”= all years, but that is not my problem, it is once again the typical extreme conservative syndrome of ignoring time or time lines when it is not convenient. > [@Terr](#): > > No, 538 looked at the federal grand juries. Not all grand juries in the US. Do you understand that there is a difference between a “federal grand jury” and a state-level grand jury? Yes, I understand, do you? As I pointed before then you have to deal with that and not to point to what they are not talking about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/164 "2014-12-23T07:53:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is… Well, that certainly settles that! We have that on your authority, then? No citation needed? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/165 "2014-12-23T07:57:06Z")
But leaving aside the ineptitude of **Terr** , I do agree with many here that what the heads of the police are claiming is the most unprofessional and reckless thing I have seen a police department do of late. On this I do agree on what Digby at Hullabaloo points out: > **[“Killing The Baby” - Digby's Hullabaloo](https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014/12/when-authorities-get-hysterical-they.html)** > > As it turns out most Americans don't care all thatm uch about abortion rights after all. And that means they don't care all that much aboutwhether some women lose their health or their lives for lack of ability to obtain one. I wish I could say that... > [@](#): > > Media Matters goes on to chronicle the of lack of coverage on Fox News. They pretty much blandly reported it without any context or commentary. > > And what did the Las Vegas police say? Did they blame the Bundy protests? Did former politicians take to twitter and lay the deaths of their fellow officers at the hands of Republican politicians who showed solidarity with the armed, anti-government protesters at the Bundy ranch? > > ``` > Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said the Millers had ideology shared by "militia and white supremacists," including the belief that law enforcement was the "oppressor." > > Police believe the shootings [that killed 2 police men] were an isolated act, not part of a broader conspiracy to target law enforcement, McMahill said. > > ``` > [@](#): > > I think you can see my point here. Last night a man executed two police officers in New York and then turned his gun on himself. In contrast to the professional response of the Las Vegas police in a very similar situation, the instant reaction from people like George Pataki and police representatives was to blame the Eric Garner protests and Mayor DeBlasio personally for showing sympathy for them. > [@](#): > > I get that the police are under pressure by the public in the wake of all these shootings of unarmed black men. But what a bunch of hysterical, immature people they are demonstrating themselves to be in reaction, particularly in contrast to the way the Las Vegas police dealt with a similar situation. (I won’t even bring up the racial elephant in the room — that should be obvious to anyone looking at the difference in these two stories.) But no matter what, being able to take pressure is in the job description of a police officer and this public acting out by petulantly demanding apologies from football players and turning their backs on politicians is more evidence to everyone with any sense that way too many police are frighteningly unprofessional. I’m sure they don’t like the criticism they get. Nobody does. But if what they’re looking for is respect, this is hardly the way to go about it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/166 "2014-12-23T10:43:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Then we’re good. Because they didn’t. Imagine if they weren’t cops – just a gang of dudes dressed like cops – but the events happened exactly as they were shown on video. A gang of dudes accosted Garner, he complained and yelled back, they tried to grab him, he resisted, they struggled, and he died. Would you honestly be arguing that they didn’t kill him? That doesn’t seem like an honest argument. Yes, they killed him. You might be arguing that their actions, which led to his death, were justified, but it’s pretty ridiculous to say that the cops didn’t kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/167 "2014-12-23T12:47:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that certainly settles that! We have that on your authority, then? No citation needed? It says so in the article I cited. You didn’t read it did you? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/168 "2014-12-23T15:35:39Z")
As the brouhaha spills into its third/fourth day, I’m surprised (or not really) that conservatives don’t realize that blaming Obama and Bill de Blasio for the deaths of those two cops essentially sends the message that if you criticize police officers, you will be blamed and suffer politically the next time a cop is killed. The lesson is: if you want to play it safe, just STFU about cops, unless it’s to wax about how wonderful they are. So that’s just great. I always thought what our democracy needed was a taboo against criticizing police officers in the public sphere. Let’s just have a totally unaccountable police force, I’m sure they can keep themselves in check. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/169 "2014-12-23T15:54:04Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > As the brouhaha spills into its third/fourth day, I’m surprised (or not really) that conservatives don’t realize that blaming Obama and Bill de Blasio for the deaths of those two cops essentially sends the message that if you criticize police officers, you will be blamed and suffer politically the next time a cop is killed. The lesson is: if you want to play it safe, just STFU about cops, unless it’s to wax about how wonderful they are. > > So that’s just great. I always thought what our democracy needed was a taboo against criticizing police officers in the public sphere. Let’s just have a totally unaccountable police force, I’m sure they can keep themselves in check. Excellent point. Do we really want a society wherein one just does not criticize police? Where if one of them kills a citizen it should be assumed that it was entirely justified? It certainly seems that some people do. So many of the people who shout “USA! USA!” seem to want to turn it into Nazi Germany. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/170 "2014-12-23T16:18:47Z")
Dam, Bob, did you \*have \*to do that? Right when we were getting it so entertainingly explained to us that Garner was killed by everyone else in the world _but_ the guy who was choking him? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/171 "2014-12-23T16:57:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > First there is the issue of “deciding to testify”. I’m not at all sure that is the prospective defendant’s option. Second is your use of “fairly anecdotal” as if that were synonymous with “reliable”. And third, this is, of course, one…count 'em, one!..incident. You didnt read the rest: \*At the Legal Aid Society, which represents tens of thousands of defendants every year, some lawyers have aggressively allowed their clients to testify before grand juries. In some years, they said, grand jurors in some boroughs voted not to indict in more than 60 percent of cases in which Legal Aid clients testified. \* ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/172 "2014-12-23T17:19:02Z")
I see that the media is now calling the protests “Anti - Police” instead of “Anti - Police BRUTALITY”, as they were originally termed. Now, why would you suppose they would do that? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/173 "2014-12-23T17:24:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You didnt read the rest: \*At the Legal Aid Society, which represents tens of thousands of defendants every year, some lawyers have aggressively allowed their clients to testify before grand juries. In some years, they said, grand jurors in some boroughs voted not to indict in more than 60 percent of cases in which Legal Aid clients testified. > \* Meaningless without data on how many Legal Aid clients testified. Some lawyers, in some boroughs in some years had 60% of the clients who testified voted not to indict. Pile enough qualifications on it and it’s bound to be true. Some lawyers, how many? We don’t know. Which years? We don’t know, not all years, but definitely some. Which boroughs? Again, not all, but some, probably, if you pick the right year and the right lawyer. Maybe the stars will align for your client. Big whoop. What if one in a hundred testified? Well then, 994 in a thousand got indicted. Might have been one in a thousand, there’s no data there, just smoke and mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/174 "2014-12-23T17:26:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Fuck it **doorhinge** , you’re going on ignore like… (post shortened) OH NO, how will I be able to enjoy the holidays without your permission? How will I ever be able to get my usual 7 hrs of sleep tonight? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/175 "2014-12-23T17:27:16Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > …there’s no data there, just smoke and mirrors. (Post shortened under threat from hamsters) _Some_ smoke and _some_ mirrors… ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/176 "2014-12-23T17:27:45Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > OH NO, how will I be able to enjoy the holidays without your permission? How will I ever be able to get my usual 7 hrs of sleep tonight? :smack: See what you did **BigT**? You should be ashamed of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/177 "2014-12-23T17:50:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Excellent point. Do we really want a society wherein one just does not criticize police? Where if one of them kills a citizen it should be assumed that it was entirely justified? It certainly seems that some people do. So many of the people who shout “USA! USA!” seem to want to turn it into Nazi Germany. Wow. Godwin’s law plus a strawman. Way to go, **BobLibDem**! Who’s preventing you from criticizing the police? People can criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize those who criticize others. Of course, some people skip the criticism part and go directly to the burning, looting, punching, kicking part of the undermine any government for dummys handbook. But those protesters should not be considered a part of the protesters because that would be painting with too broad a brush. It’s as if only police officer actions should be painted with that broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/178 "2014-12-23T17:54:49Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > See what you did **BigT**? You should be ashamed of yourself. Stop picking on **BigT**. Have you no common decency? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/179 "2014-12-23T18:16:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Wow. Godwin’s law plus a strawman. Way to go, **BobLibDem**! > > Who’s preventing you from criticizing the police? People can criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize those who criticize others. > > Of course, some people skip the criticism part and go directly to the burning, looting, punching, kicking part of the undermine any government for dummys handbook. > > But those protesters should not be considered a part of the protesters because that would be painting with too broad a brush. It’s as if only police officer actions should be painted with that broad brush. If you’re a politician, you take huge political risk for pointing out police abuse. Mr. Obama can, as we remember in his true statement about cops acting stupidly. One would have thought Mr. Obama had dug up the corpse of Betsy Ross and sodomized it on television when the right wing heard that one. The NY mayor can tell you all about what happens if you dare say the cops aren’t God’s Chosen People. On this board, you’ve got people who blame the victim for being choked to death, and who condone the shooting of a 12 year old within 2 seconds of the arrival of the cops. These people go batshit crazy at the notion that there is anything that a cop could do that would be wrong. Some people take to acts of arson or looting when these things happen. They are a small minority. Most of us also think that a small minority of cops are sadistic murderers. All we ask is that those that commit heinous acts while in uniform are prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/180 "2014-12-23T18:57:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Who’s preventing you from criticizing the police? People can criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize the police AND people can criticize those who criticize those who criticize others. And to the extent that Patrick Lynch and the politicians and media pundits amplifying his temper tantrum succeed in their campaign against Bill de Blasio, the takeaway will be that politicians “can” criticize the police in the same sense that I “can” jump out my 20th floor window. Perhaps you think that would be a healthy development for our democracy. I don’t. > [@](#): > > Of course, some people skip the criticism part and go directly to the burning, looting, punching, kicking part of the undermine any government for dummys handbook. Those people should be arrested. Some of them were. Thankfully, President Obama and Mayor de Blasio had the good sense not to further inflame the situation by calling those people out as the anarchist bums they obviously are. Had they done so, it most likely would have reinforced the anarchist bums’ narrative of “us vs them,” invited a greater percentage of anarchist bums to the fray, thus further radicalizing the protests and possibly necessitating a harsher police response. The harsher police response may well have resulted in more cops being hurt, more protesters/anarchist bums being hurt, more damage to property, and a non-negligible possibility of escalation into full-blown race riots all over the country. For that reason, I am glad–as I’m sure you are, **doorhinge** –to have steady hands and cool heads among our leadership. > [@](#): > > But those protesters should not be considered a part of the protesters because that would be painting with too broad a brush. The anarchist bums are part of the protesters. They are a minority of the protesters. The majority of the protesters have a more cogent argument and make for a more credible constituency than the anarchist bums. In that sense, it’s self-serving to call the anarchist bums “representative” of the protesters. > [@](#): > > It’s as if only police officer actions should be painted with that broad brush. When you accused **BobLibDem** of making a strawman, was it intended as praise? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=10)