# The American Aborigine **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 25, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107 "2003-03-25T20:19:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/21 "2003-03-26T14:47:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*And I’m sure geneologists and geneticists have better terms than any used here. > > For the rest of us, I still don’t see the need to have specific terms to describe when one’s ancestors arrived on a specifc piece of dirt. \*\* How about identifying a culture? I identify as English. Raj identifies as Pakistani. That’s more than genetics - it’s history, culture, a part of who you are. “So and so is Native American” can mean that they identify with Native American culture. I don’t see what your objection is to normal people using terms that simply refer to ancestry or culture. Jolly well done for the “we’re all one species, lets all be equal” but terms that distinguish between groups of humans are simply useful for referring to cultures, history, ancestory, identity. I don’t see why you’d want to reject the use of them for these reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/22 "2003-03-26T16:13:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > **Except that the British call people from India “Asians” (except for the BNP, of course, which call them something else).** Dear boy, the kind of people who would refer to “Red Indians” - it’s a slightly archaic phrase over here, donchaknow - are perfectly capable of drawing the distinction between Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Burmese, Nepalese, Chinese, Japanese and Malays, for a start, without calling them all “Asians”. I can’t apologise enough for the BNP, but at least our extremist rednecks have a suitably minute representation in our official government. Lord above, I wish only that some other countries could say the same. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*Mistreatment of indigenous populations? Gosh, I wonder who we learned _that_ sort of thing from. \*\* Now that won’t do, my old trout. Nothing we ever did in India, for a start, compares to Wounded Knee, or indeed the whole campaign of displacement and extermination that made a mockery of this whole all-men-created-equal, life-liberty-and-pursuit-of-happiness thing. :rolleyes: Learned? You set about improving on the lesson as soon as you’d got rid of the evil British, and it’s not a bit of good pretending otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*And I’m not sure the British exactly _gave_ India back, per se… > \*\* Oh dear. ☹ I’m sorry to keep harping on the facts, but they’re rather inarguable. Whatever semantics we adopt, I’m afraid we have to concede that the Indians have had India back since 1947 (and it’s not as though we got kicked forcibly out), and the “Red Indians” will be getting America back shortly after the beginning of the nuclear winter, I should think. What’s left of them, that is. Do you really think they wouldn’t swap places with the modern-day Indians in a heartbeat? Population a thousand million strong, and a lovely sub-continent all of their very own? Shall we ask them? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*Oh, I haven’t even got started on annoying British speech habits. 😛 \*\* Then please do, sonny. And when you’re done, I can soon let you have some more 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/23 "2003-03-26T16:18:09Z")
**Melacandra** - pssst. **jr8** is indeed American, but he lives over here and has done for several years. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/24 "2003-03-26T16:39:24Z")
Ah well, he’s not wholly beyond redemption then 🆒 😃 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/25 "2003-03-26T17:10:16Z")
Speaking as someone who was born and raised in the USA, along with parents, grandparents, etc. for several generations back, I am annoyed that I can no longer call myself a Native American (which I am) because another group of Native Americans has decided that it is politically correct to co-opt this term to apply to themselves exclusively. Along the same lines it bothers me that I can no longer use the word “gay” to describe someone with a happy and carefree personality, because the homosexual community has decided that it is now their word. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/26 "2003-03-26T17:16:36Z")
Ducking for cover with my flame-retardant suit:D ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/27 "2003-03-26T17:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fat Bald Guy \* > \*\*Speaking as someone who was born and raised in the USA, along with parents, grandparents, etc. for several generations back, I am annoyed that I can no longer call myself a Native American (which I am) because another group of Native Americans has decided that it is politically correct to co-opt this term to apply to themselves exclusively. > > Along the same lines it bothers me that I can no longer use the word “gay” to describe someone with a happy and carefree personality, because the homosexual community has decided that it is now their word. \*\* Maybe you should start a movement by incorporating both of those terms into a new name. That’s right ladies and gentlemen, it is the… **Gay Fat Bald Native American!** ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/28 "2003-03-27T09:07:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maxxxie \* > \*\*The term _Aboriginal_ here has lately been supplanted by _Indigenous Australian_, a term I personally prefer. > > What’s wrong with _Indigenous American_? > > Max. \*\* That’s a great idea! But it’s a bit long. Maybe we could abbreviate it by combining the beginning of the first word and the end of the last word (like “SPiced hAM”): So: **Indi** genous Americ **an**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/29 "2003-03-27T09:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*That’s a great idea! But it’s a bit long. Maybe we could abbreviate it by combining the beginning of the first word and the end of the last word (like “SPiced hAM”): > > So: **Indi** genous Americ **an**. > > 😃 \*\* _does the nose trick with a mouthful of ice-cold Pepsi_ OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/30 "2003-03-27T12:52:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malacandra \* > **Dear boy, the kind of people who would refer to “Red Indians” - it’s a slightly archaic phrase over here, donchaknow - are perfectly capable of drawing the distinction between Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Burmese, Nepalese, Chinese, Japanese and Malays, for a start, without calling them all “Asians”.** It doesn’t seem very archaic to me; while it seems to be more common in older Brits, the few people I’ve heard use the phrase “Native American” have done so with that tinge of distaste many British seem to reserve for other peculiar American phrases such as “Have a nice day”. Maybe the people you know are different. \*\* > [@](#): > > I can’t apologise enough for the BNP, but at least our extremist rednecks have a suitably minute representation in our official government. Lord above, I wish only that some other countries could say the same.\*\* I won’t blame you for the BNP as long as you don’t blame me for Trent Lott. \*\* > [@](#): > > Now that won’t do, my old trout. Nothing we ever did in India, for a start, compares to Wounded Knee, or indeed the whole campaign of displacement and extermination that made a mockery of this whole all-men-created-equal, life-liberty-and-pursuit-of-happiness thing. :rolleyes:\*\* That’s because the British don’t believe that all men are created equal (hence the House of Lords). And I seem to recall Britain was not without its [massacres in India](http://www.forgottenhistory.org/exhibits/amritsar.html). Plus, it’s a lot harder to displace people who outnumber you greatly, at least for very long (although I suppose the South Africans managed it). \*\* > [@](#): > > Learned? You set about improving on the lesson as soon as you’d got rid of the evil British, and it’s not a bit of good pretending otherwise.\*\* Did you know the British railway companies in India as late as the 1930’s employed people to “shoot wogs” who were causing trouble (and sometimes just for the hell of it)? One does hear such interesting stories from the older generation. \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh dear. ☹ I’m sorry to keep harping on the facts, but they’re rather inarguable. Whatever semantics we adopt, I’m afraid we have to concede that the Indians have had India back since 1947 (and it’s not as though we got kicked forcibly out),\*\* Heh. More to the point, it’s not like you could have stayed even if you’d wanted to. The writing was clearly on the wall by that point. It was not by any means a gracious gesture on the part of the British (although, unlike the French and their colonies, the British at least left before they were pushed). \*\* > [@](#): > > and the “Red Indians” will be getting America back shortly after the beginning of the nuclear winter, I should think. What’s left of them, that is. Do you really think they wouldn’t swap places with the modern-day Indians in a heartbeat? Population a thousand million strong, and a lovely sub-continent all of their very own? Shall we ask them?\*\* Well, if you don’t _mind_ 280-some million Americans moving back to the UK, I’ll see what I can do. Of course, the Canadians will have to move back too, and the Australians, and the New Zealanders – hey, if you think the Underground is crowded _now_, just you wait… \*\* > [@](#): > > Then please do, sonny. And when you’re done, I can soon let you have some more 😃 \*\* Oh Lord – I’m sure there’s already a thread on this one somewhere (which probably started as an argument over aluminum/aluminium). ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/31 "2003-03-27T12:58:35Z")
How about “Original Americans”? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/32 "2003-03-27T15:10:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francesca \* > \*\*How about identifying a culture? I identify as English. Raj identifies as Pakistani. That’s more than genetics - it’s history, culture, a part of who you are. “So and so is Native American” can mean that they identify with Native American culture. I don’t see what your objection is to normal people using terms that simply refer to ancestry or culture. \*\* If we’re going to be using these terms to identify culture, we’ll need to self-identify with them. Culture is more chosen than born into once the person reaches majority, after all. I don’t self-identify with any word other than human. I think I’ve become interested in too many things from too many regions to be classified narrowly. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/33 "2003-03-27T15:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_ > **It doesn’t seem very archaic to me; while it seems to be more common in older Brits, the few people I’ve heard use the phrase “Native American” have done so with that tinge of distaste many British seem to reserve for other peculiar > American phrases such as “Have a nice day”. Maybe the people > you know are different.** There’s something to what you say. We don’t find the Indigenous Americans dropping into conversation as often as all that, so I suppose we don’t keep up on the current forms, and none of the alternatives sound all that comfortable. And in any case, this doesn’t address the fundamental irony: dancing around the proper form of expression to use for the people you’ve dispossessed beyond all hope of repossession. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_ > **I won’t blame you for the BNP as long as you don’t blame me for Trent Lott.** Fair enough. Neither of us is responsible for the worst excesses spewed up by the democratic system. We seem to have some shocking ornaments on both sides of the Pond, don’t we? _shakes head_ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_\*\* > That’s because the British don’t believe that all men are created equal (hence the House of Lords). And I seem to recall Britain was not without its massacres in India. Plus, it’s a lot harder to displace people who outnumber you greatly, at least for very long (although I suppose the South Africans managed it).\*\* Look here, old chap, that’s rather getting away from the point, isn’t it? Why, in the very document that mentions the bit about the Creator-given inalienable rights, I believe your founding fathers had some rather harsh things to say about the Redskins. “Life, liberty” and so on made a jolly good rallying cry while you were rousing yourselves to chase the hated King George’s Men out of your colonies and throwing perfectly good tea into harbours and so on, but you really owed it to yourselves to _apply_ those beautiful and moving words to the chappies who already lived there, as well as the blacks who hadn’t exactly asked for the boat ride. Now, as long as you’re dragging us off-topic long enough to argue about the House of Lords, I rather feel it was no bad thing. We got around to giving the bulk of the power to the elected chamber, you know; and there’s definitely a makeable case for having the second chamber one that _isn’t_answerable to every party-political straw in the wind. I don’t say it was an unqualifiedly good thing, but it wasn’t self-evidently terrible. Massacres in India? Well, it wasn’t all one-way traffic. A distressingly large number of white women and children got on the wrong end of some unpleasantness in the Indian Mutiny, you know. And really, whatever we did didn’t exactly amount to cornering the whole of the population in, say, Uttar Pradesh, after shooting the ones who wouldn’t go, and filling up the rest of the country with our ethnic kith and kin, did it? Outnumbering - well, the Spanish seemed to do a pretty good job in South America. And we did have the Maxim gun and industrialised arms production and so on. If we’d been that bent on it, we could probably have given it quite a convincing go. I’ve heard it put thusly (of the British Raj): We were their Romans; we _could_ have been their conquistadors. _shudders at the vile thought_ It’s funny you should mention the South Africans. I believe we went over and gave them a good spanking a hundred-odd years ago, and part of the reason was how they treated the blacks. Don’t forget that a largish part of the colony was of Dutch extraction, not English, won’t you? Blame where blame’s due, and all that. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_\*\* > Did you know the British railway companies in India as late as the 1930’s employed people to “shoot wogs” who were causing trouble (and sometimes just for the hell of it)? One does hear such interesting stories from the older generation.\*\* Simply dreadful. And see some interesting things on the television in the present day, if it comes to that. Really, you’re not going to get away with using _that_ brush and not get any tar on yourself, now are you? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_\*\* > Heh. More to the point, it’s not like you could have stayed even if you’d wanted to. The writing was clearly on the wall by that point. It was not by any means a gracious gesture on the part of the British (although, unlike the French and their colonies, the British at least left before they were pushed).\*\* Yes. We didn’t exactly get forcibly kicked out in the end, and we’re moderately pally with the Indians even now, though not everyone agrees, I know. There are quite a few working in the office where I do, and they seem quite cheerful about it - odd when you consider we’re their former colonial oppressors and all that. And, one way and another, at least the Evil Empire kept the Japanese out. _They_ gave the Chinese and the Koreans a pretty fair picture of what their idea of Asian solidarity meant. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jr8_\*\* > Well, if you don’t mind 280-some million Americans moving back to the UK, I’ll see what I can do. Of course, the Canadians will have to move back too, and the Australians, and the New Zealanders – hey, if you think the Underground is crowded now, just you wait… > \*\* Now you’re talking as though the whole problem was in some way_our_ fault! Look, you were a nice modest-sized thirteen states on the Atlantic seaboard when you threw off the shackles of the hated tyrant, and then you started advertising for the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, and all that stuff; or to put it in other words, “Europe, please send us plenty of white breeding stock while we grab some _lebensraum_, push the ghastly savages ever further West, destroy their way of life, and reduce them to a tattered remnant living in beggary”. You’ll have to share quite a few of them among Poland and Germany and the Netherlands and France and so on, anyway. Oh, and Ireland. As to Canada and Australia and New Zealand, I’ll have to defer that question to an expert. Or just carry on, as a sop to your consciences, agonizing over what to call the poor blighters… which is where I came in. ---
**Author:** ![RenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenMan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/34 "2003-03-27T18:11:28Z")
Doesn’t Canada refer to its aboriginal people as the First Nations? Seems like a very true and respectful title to me. It avoids the word “aborigine” which has Australian connotations. What do you think? [Cite](http://www.aboriginalcanada.com/firstnation/) ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/35 "2003-03-27T19:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RenMan \* > \*\*Doesn’t Canada refer to its aboriginal people as the First Nations? Seems like a very true and respectful title to me. It avoids the word “aborigine” which has Australian connotations. What do you think? > > [Cite](http://www.aboriginalcanada.com/firstnation/) \*\* Why, [yes](http://www.cyfn.ca/ourNations/), yes they do. And as for the land claims stuff, [this link](http://www.cyfn.ca/ourAgreements/index.html) will cover what’s going on here, anyways. My only comment on land claims is…perhaps it would have been better to ensure that the process was staffed by people who had some idea of what they were going to do for employment AFTER it was settled…seems a tad counterproductive to settle the land claims when that means you’d be out of a job, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/36 "2003-03-27T20:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maxxxie \* > \*\*What’s wrong with _Indigenous American_? > > Max. \*\* Too much confusion with illiterate indigent Americans and indignant Americans. \ I remember when I used to care about stuff. This was actually a pet peeve of mine but I gave up on it. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/37 "2003-03-28T11:06:56Z")
**Maxxxie** , I’m Australian and I’ve never heard the Aboriginals called “indiginous Australians.” ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/38 "2003-03-28T15:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > How about “Original Americans”? “Origines”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/39 "2003-03-28T16:51:05Z")
> [@](#): > > You notice I use the term American Indian rather than Native American or Native indigenous people or Amerindian when referring to my people. There has been some controversy about such terms, and frankly, at this point. I find it absurd. Primarily it seems that American Indian is being rejected as European in origin-which is true. But all the above terms are European in origin; the only non-European way is to speak of Lakota-or, more precisely, of Oglala, Brule, etc.-and of the Dineh, the Miccousukee, and all the rest of the several hundred correct tribal names. > > There is also some confusion about the word Indian, a mistaken belief that it refers somehow to the country, India. When Columbus washed up on the beach in the Caribbean, he was not looking for a country called India. Europeans were calling that country Hindustan in 1492. Look it up on the old maps. Columbus called the tribal people he met “Indio,” from the Italian in dio, meaning “in God.” Source: [http://www.russellmeans.com/speech.html](http://www.russellmeans.com/speech.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107/40 "2003-03-28T16:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\ ***Maxxxie** , I’m Australian and I’ve never heard the Aboriginals called “indiginous Australians.” \*\* I lived in Oz for ten years. I heard the phrase quite frequently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-aborigine/164107.md?page=1)