# "The American Civil War wasn't about slavery because slavery didn't actually exist in the South" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2025, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037 "2025-01-16T07:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/1 "2025-01-16T07:59:56Z")
I remember seeing this quote a year ago in one of those “In defense of the Confederacy” books but I didn’t bother to actually read what they meant. I know even on the SDMB I’ve seen people semantically argue that slavery isn’t slavery unless there’s a part where a human being is bought or sold as property, if you just grab a person and work them to death, that technically isn’t slavery. Is that what possibly they mean? If there’s no money changing hands it’s not slavery? Anybody ever hear of the title argument and know what they mean? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/2 "2025-01-16T08:08:31Z")
Never heard of this argument, but it sounds so harebrained I can’t imagine it holds any meaningful traction. I would even wonder if the argument is being misinterpreted by someone (not you, OP) or mis-conveyed. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/3 "2025-01-16T08:11:31Z")
That couldn’t be the argument, since slaves could be, and were in fact, bought and sold as property in the slave states of the US. I can’t see any argument for saying that slavery didn’t exist in the southern US prior to the Civil War, unless you are adopting some very non-obvious, artficial and tendentious definition of “slavery”. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/4 "2025-01-16T08:22:44Z")
Is this some contorted way of trying to argue that at some point slaveowners had ceased to rely on importing enslaved Africans in the triangular slave _trade_ ? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/5 "2025-01-16T08:44:12Z")
I’ve never seen the argument. I have seen claims that slavery was benevolent, or that it benefited the slaves. Florida’s social studies curriculum for public schools says that slaves developed skills that they could use for their “personal benefit.” However, in a world with holocaust deniers and flat earthers, it’s possible there are people who claim there was no slavery of any type in the American south. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/6 "2025-01-16T10:07:00Z")
I suppose someone will eventually claim the slaves were illegal immigrants… ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/7 "2025-01-16T10:12:23Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Anybody ever hear of the title argument and know what they mean? It’s basically an argument by Southern apologists, which started almost as soon as the Civil War was over. For example _The Lost Cause: A New Southern History of the War of the Confederates_, by Edward A. Pollard (1866). Wikipedia quotes this from that book: > [@](#): > > We shall not enter upon the discussion of the moral question of slavery. But we may suggest a doubt here whether that odious term “slavery”, which has been so long imposed, by the exaggeration of Northern writers, upon the judgement and sympathies of the world, is properly applied to that system of servitude in the South, which was really the mildest in the world; which did not rest on acts of debasement and disenfranchisement, but elevated the African, and was in the interest of human improvement; and which, by the law of the land, protected the negro in life and limb, and in many personal rights, and, by the practice of the system, bestowed upon him a sum of individual indulgences, which made him altogether the most striking type in the world of cheerfulness and contentment.[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy#cite_note-28) > **[Lost Cause of the Confederacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy)** > > The Lost Cause of the Confederacy (or simply the Lost Cause) is an American pseudohistorical and historical negationist myth that argues the cause of the Confederate States during the American Civil War was just, heroic, and not centered on slavery. First enunciated in 1866, it has continued to influence racism, gender roles, and religious attitudes in the Southern United States into the 21st century. Historians have dismantled many parts of the Lost Cause mythos. > Beyond forced unpaid labor a... ---
**Author:** ![StringsandHammers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stringsandhammers/32/17933_2.png) [@StringsandHammers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StringsandHammers)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/8 "2025-01-16T12:51:12Z")
Not only was the American Civil War fought over slavery but the Texas War for independance that preceeded it was at least in part fought over slavery. Mexico outlawed slavery decades before the US and the Texas settlers didn’t want to give up their slaves. Texas fought 2 wars over slavery. ~Lifelong Texan ---
**Author:** ![mcgato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mcgato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcgato)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/9 "2025-01-16T13:37:00Z")
This site has the declaration of secession for the states that formally seceded. The ones that I read mention slavery in the first couple of sentences. > **[The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states)** > > The Declaration of Causes made by Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/10 "2025-01-16T13:45:00Z")
As a factual matter, of course it’s mentioned in their own secession announcements (and subsequently in the Constitution of the Confederacy and other writing of the time by Southerners). But as cited above, there exists an idea, pre-dating the war, of the myth of some noble Southern cause that did not depend on preserving the institution of slavery and minimized its importance as a casus belli. For those who have a vested interest in such a myth, inconvenient things like historic records, including literal texts contradicting the idea, don’t much matter. Unfortunately, it can spread perniciously as people don’t always fact-check things they hear or read. Or rather, we humans rarely do. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/11 "2025-01-16T14:39:09Z")
> [@StringsandHammers](#): > > Not only was the American Civil War fought over slavery but the Texas War for independance that preceeded it was at least in part fought over slavery. > > Mexico outlawed slavery decades before the US and the Texas settlers didn’t want to give up their slaves. Texas fought 2 wars over slavery. > > ~Lifelong Texan True, and mysteriously, not covered in any of my (many) unit studies on the Alamo. ~ guy who grew up in Texas and lived \>30 years there ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/12 "2025-01-16T15:08:17Z")
The import of African slaves was ended in the US and British colonies in 1807. Unfortunately the slave traders found ways to circumvent the law. The legislation was a minor inconvenience to the slave traders. AFAIK The slaves already in the US weren’t helped by this legislation. Link [Atlantic slave trade - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade) > [@](#): > > The Atlantic slave trade exportation of slaves to Cuba was illegal by 1820; however, Cuba continued to import enslaved Africans from Africa until slavery was abolished in 1886. After the abolition of the slave trade to the United States and British colonies in 1807, Florida imported enslaved Africans from Cuba, many landing in [Amelia Island](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Island_affair). A clandestine slave ferry operated between [Havana, Cuba](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana) and [Pensacola, Florida](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensacola,_Florida). Florida remained under Spanish control until 1821 which made it difficult for the United States to cease the smuggling of enslaved Africans from Cuba. In 1821, Florida was ceded to the United States and the smuggling of enslaved Africans continued, and from 1821 to 1841 Cuba became a main supplier of enslaved Africans for the United States. Between 1859 and 1862, slave traders made 40 illegal voyages between Cuba and the United States. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/13 "2025-01-16T15:09:04Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > True, and mysteriously, not covered in any of my (many) unit studies on the Alamo. > > ~ guy who grew up in Texas and lived \>30 years there It’s the very topic of a recent book, **Forget the Alamo – The Rise and Fall of an American Myth** by Bryan Burrough, Chris Tomlinson, and Jason Stanford. It takes previous works about the Alamo to task for completely ignoring this aspect of the Texas War for Independence. Highly recommended > **[Forget the Alamo: The Rise and Fall of an American Myth: Burrough, Bryan,...](https://www.amazon.com/Forget-Alamo-Rise-Fall-American/dp/198488011X)** > > Forget the Alamo: The Rise and Fall of an American Myth \[Burrough, Bryan, Tomlinson, Chris, Stanford, Jason\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Forget the Alamo: The Rise and Fall of an American Myth ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/14 "2025-01-16T15:18:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s the very topic of a recent book, **Forget the Alamo – The Rise and Fall of an American Myth** by Bryan Burrough, Chris Tomlinson, and Jason Stanford. It takes previous works about the Alamo to task for completely ignoring this aspect of the Texas War for Independence. Highly recommended Yes! I second this recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/15 "2025-01-16T15:26:31Z")
I enjoyed the book as well. The discussion of the Phil Collins collection and it’s dubious provenance was pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/16 "2025-01-16T16:25:24Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I suppose someone will eventually claim the slaves were illegal immigrants… Ben Carson once said slaves were immigrants who came to America for opportunity: > [@Ben Carson](#): > > That’s what America is about. A land of dreams and opportunity. There were other immigrants who came here in the bottom of slave ships, worked even longer, even harder for less. But they, too, had a dream that one day their sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, great-grandsons, great-granddaughters might pursue prosperity and happiness in this land. ---
**Author:** ![StringsandHammers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stringsandhammers/32/17933_2.png) [@StringsandHammers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StringsandHammers)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/17 "2025-01-16T17:31:39Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > > [@Maserschmidt](#): > > > > True, and mysteriously, not covered in any of my (many) unit studies on the Alamo. > > > > ~ guy who grew up in Texas and lived \>30 years there > > It’s the very topic of a recent book, **Forget the Alamo – The Rise and Fall of an American Myth** by Bryan Burrough, Chris Tomlinson, and Jason Stanford. It takes previous works about the Alamo to task for completely ignoring this aspect of the Texas War for Independence. Highly recommended > > [Forget the Alamo: The Rise and Fall of an American Myth: Burrough, Bryan, Tomlinson, Chris, Stanford, Jason: 9781984880116: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Forget-Alamo-Rise-Fall-American/dp/198488011X/ref=asc_df_198488011X?mcid=e2ceff0df68b3085839f57f590976345&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693407082171&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17722124378416958339&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001883&hvtargid=pla-1465766301103&psc=1) I can assure you this book won’t make it into mandatory (emphasis here) Texas history 6th grade classroom. The state of Texas will probably ban it and call it critical race theory if it hasn’t done so already. I attended public school in San Antonio the entire time and not once did anyone mention those white male settlers had slaves and were really only fighting for their own freedom and no one else’s… not women, not African Americans, and not even the fellow Tejanos who fought and died beside them in the Alamo… After the war was over the Texas settlers immediately started taking away all the land and rights those hispanics fought for who were on their same side… None of this gets mentioned, it’s all propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/18 "2025-01-16T17:41:36Z")
I suppose those who were born into bondage and spent their entire lives on the same plantation weren’t slaves because they were never “bough” or “sold.” As if that meant their lives were any less insignificant to ol’ massa. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/19 "2025-01-16T18:16:21Z")
Seldom seen a nonfiction book that’s been read by so many people here. The recommendation is deserved. This is great non-academic history. The book’s especially good at detailing the history of white groups protecting the myth of the Alamo, down into the 21st century. For us boomer kids, brought up on Disney’s Davy Crockett, real history - of the Alamo and Texas independence and the Southern insistence on pushing slavery into the west - will always be shocking. The Lost Cause, as evidenced by the quote above, is perhaps the sickest lie in a history filled with them. Nevertheless, major historians accepted the myth and polished it into a high gloss and bequeathed it as a gem to a century of schoolkids. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037/20 "2025-01-16T18:17:35Z")
If you go right to the source, the Constitution of the Confederacy, they mention slavery quite a few times, so unless the person rejects the CSA as the arbiters of what the CSA wanted, I don’t know what to tell them. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I suppose someone will eventually claim the slaves were illegal immigrants… Funny enough, they banned the (involuntary naturally) migration of slaves from elsewhere > Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same. > > (2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-civil-war-wasnt-about-slavery-because-slavery-didnt-actually-exist-in-the-south/1013037.md?page=2)