# The American Coup: 11.9.2020 - **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182 "2020-11-09T23:29:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1082 "2020-12-13T13:44:16Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I still don’t like the joint session, seated closely, with a lot of people not wearing masks. Has anyone addressed that? \<_Tugging on someone’s sleeve_…\> B-b-b-but with everyone crammed into one room for hours, this joint session could turn out to be another super-spreader event. 😲 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1083 "2020-12-13T14:10:21Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > B-b-b-but with everyone crammed into one room for hours, this joint session could turn out to be another super-spreader event. 😲 I honestly believe that congressional republicans have been relying on the advantage, however slight, conferred by being willing to expose their democratic colleagues to COVID. Perhaps people won’t show up for votes, perhaps people will get rattled, perhaps someone will make an intemperate remark or look silly in a mask for the cameras. I suspect that they also just want to infect everyone else out of pure spite and stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1084 "2020-12-13T14:18:18Z")
Jeez, what a flaming turd sack. This is one of the things I don’t like about my state. This guy was too extreme for Floridian _Republicans_, so he moves here and gets elected chair of the Texas GOP. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Here’s the money quote: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Supreme Court, in tossing the Texas lawsuit that was joined by seventeen states and 106 U.S. congressman, has decreed that a state can take unconstitutional actions and violate its own election law resulting in damaging effects on other states that abide by the law, while the guilty state suffers no consequences. This decision establishes a precedent that says states can violate the U.S. constitution and not be held accountable. > > > > > This decision will have far-reaching ramifications for the future of our constitutional republic. Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution. > > The really, _really_ incredible part is what follows that statement: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Texas GOP will always stand for the Constitution and for the rule of law even while others don’t. Wow. Flip logic on its head. That’s Trumpian logic. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is also the Republicans who are preventing the Heroes act, which includes updated guidance to the IRS on how to treat forgiven PPP loans. That element may be something they would support on its own, but it’s tied up in a bill with a lot of other measures they despise. “Provide money to state, local, tribal, and territorial governments? How DARE you!” > [@RickJay](#): > > The concept of zero-sum is not a uniquely American thing - it’s a human one and it’s very hard to educate out of people. It’s always lurking in us and all nations must be on guard for its corrosive effects on politics and the social contract. True, but this thread is focused on the ongoing issue in American politics right now, so I’m wrapped up in how it plays out here. > [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s not “the left” and in no way are they liberals or Democrats. They’re some combination of libertarians, anarchists, reactionaries, paranoid bombthrowers, and trolls. Most of them are despondent over the prospect loss of male and white privilege. There are various kinds of sociopaths and megalomaniacs, racists and misogynists mixed in. They’re not “our” extremists. That’s a fair point - I accept the correction. The left _is_ guilty of some acts of ratcheting up the tension. Antifa is one of them. I realize that Antifa is not an organization, but rather is a loose philosophy. But their slogan of “By any means necessary,” is a scary one. Does that include murder? It certainly includes instigating violence. I wish I could find the information that surfaced the first time I tried to find out more about the group. It predated Trump’s presidency, so it’s buried under the noise of a lot of more current discussion. I also wish I could remember specifics of what lead me to look them up in the first place. There was a White Supremacist march somewhere, I want to say California. Protesters showed up - great. Then a large number of the protestors went off, geared up in black bloc, came back, and attacked the march to break it up. Understand this was not a huge march - nothing on the scale of Charlottesville. This would barely have been a blip on the news until the “protestors” changed tactics to physical assault. I do not support those tactics in any way. But I’m **not** trying to equate the level of contribution between the sides. The conservatives have been on a hard march to the right for most of my adult life. The appeal of the Tea Party is just one manifestation. It’s ironic that the group styles itself after the Patriots that helped kick off the American Revolution, yet their aims and means are not about the American ideals of liberty and equality. The group that claims to want freedom from government overreach is perfectly fine with the government protecting their privileges and imposing their beliefs. They want to make abortion illegal. They want Christianity to have a privileged position in law. They want to overturn gay rights. Etc. And the right wing media has driven this divide. Their coocooland messaging has warped the views of so many people. I get that there are different perspectives that need a voice. But the right has been driving to include the bizarrest interpretations of events and issues. The nonstop drive to find the most provacative voices to highlight keeps shifting the collective thought bubble to more and more bizarre places. Thus, we get Trump. I’ve wanted to consider myself a moderate my whole life. I tend to avoid extremes and superlatives like best and favorite. I feel like I want to be fair to all reasonable positions. But I have discovered I’m a raging liberal by American standards. I believe in social justice, freedom of conscience, equality for all races and ethnic groups. I want economic fairness. I want a better America for _all_, not just the privileged of the past, even if I am one who has benefited from that privilege. The demonization coming out of the right far exceeds anything the left has done. That’s not to say there aren’t extremist positions coming out of the left, but equating the amount and the impact on society is a fallacy, and I am not trying to do that. I just want to acknowledge that the hostility that has infected society didn’t spring out of nowhere, and isn’t isolated to the right. It’s a festering infection that spreads into the good tissue. It can affect all of us. I find my own hostility rising. It becomes easier and easier to dismiss all conservatives and all Republicans as, at best, misguided fools. I have friends and relatives on that side, and it’s harder and harder to respect them. And that’s a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1085 "2020-12-13T15:42:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Perhaps people won’t show up for votes, perhaps people will get rattled, perhaps someone will make an intemperate remark or look silly in a mask for the cameras. And perhaps by then, legislators will be infected and not show up due to quarantine. Democrats would be more likely to abide by quarantine rules than Republicans. If a COVID positive Democrat shows up, they will be held as hypocrites who don’t believe their own press about the dangers of the virus, if COVID positive Republicans show up, they will be lauded for their bravery. And that is assuming that they are asymptomatic or have a mild case. A lot of these people are a bit on the old side, it’s not that unlikely that some will be incapacitated or even worse. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I suspect that they also just want to infect everyone else out of pure spite and stupidity. And there _is_ that. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1086 "2020-12-13T15:51:22Z")
If there were any chance that Trump could end up holding the presidency because Democrats didn’t show up then I would expect them to attend regardless of their COVID status. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1087 "2020-12-13T16:08:34Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That element may be something they would support on its own, but it’s tied up in a bill with a lot of other measures they despise. It’s a pretty big and direct deal. If it is not dealt with, I am personally looking at a $10,000 tax liability on it. And I got a rather small loan. Other peers of mine who took much larger loans have much bigger liabilities. Even the stauncher of conservatives in my circle of business acquaintances are pretty pissed about this. It’s one thing to complain about some nebulous issues, to complain about others benefiting from legislation, but this is hitting them right in their pocket books. One thing to stand on principle, but when that principle directly costs you $25,000 to $50,000 out of your pocket in taxes, those objections evaporate quickly. Out of my acquaintances that own businesses, I am one of only two that lean left. However, all of them are pretty pissed about this. These people _are_ contacting their congress critters. Many of them are fairly influential in their communities. Rob Portman, the Republican senator from Ohio, actually is pushing to pass the relief bill, as he is toast in 2022 without support from the small business community. One of my acquaintances took a PPP loan to try to keep his restaurant open, but was unable to keep it going, even with the loan. He’s going to have to pay a whole lot of taxes even though he no longer has business income. He would have been better off not taking the loan and simply closing, rather than taking the loan to try to keep his employees and rent paid. Anyway, my point is, is that this is the sort of obstruction that _is_ noticed, even by Republican supporters, and _will_ be punished at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1088 "2020-12-13T16:12:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > True, but this thread is focused on the ongoing issue in American politics right now, so I’m wrapped up in how it plays out here. No, I get that. It IS part of a larger problem though, and that’s important to bear in mind because understanding the large problem is part of figuring out how to fix it. I am not exactly sure why the world took a fascist turn in the last ten years, but it did, and the last time it took a fascist turn, well, we all remember how that turned out. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1089 "2020-12-13T16:16:47Z")
I would to, but expect quite a bit of accusations of hypocrisy. And as I also mentioned, that is assuming that they are physically capable of attending, and not in an ICU or a morgue. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1090 "2020-12-13T16:23:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Anyway, my point is, is that this is the sort of obstruction that _is_ noticed, even by Republican supporters, and _will_ be punished at the polls. Good. At least there’s something. If they don’t just believe the lie that it’s the Democrats preventing relief. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1091 "2020-12-13T16:25:20Z")
It’s not like America doesn’t have a history with fascism. It was all the rage pre-WWII. There were Nazi rallies in Madison Square Gardens. After Germany was defeated, fascism was less acceptable, but it never really went away, the roots of it still linger. In 1980, fascism was unacceptable enough that a movie was made with the expectation that people would laugh at Nazis who have their picnic ruined and are ultimately killed. I’m pretty sure that the only people that died in The Blues Brothers were a couple of Nazis, and everyone thought it was hilarious. 40 years later, we’ve come full circle. We have Nazi marches, we have a president who accepts and enables them. I don’t expect it to be too long until we have full blown Nazi rallies in public venues. Honestly, the Trump rallies are not that far off, there’s not much daylight between them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1092 "2020-12-13T16:38:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > In 1980, fascism was unacceptable enough that a movie was made with the expectation that people would laugh at Nazis who have their picnic ruined and are ultimately killed. I’m pretty sure that the only people that died in The Blues Brothers were a couple of Nazis, and everyone thought it was hilarious. Remember, though, that Trumpists do not think they are Nazis. Their position is that Nazis are actually socialists (who are also communists) and therefore they cannot be Nazis. The similarity between Trumpism and plain old fascism isn’t something they generally get. The level of self delusion amongst Trumpists is really quite impossible to overstate. You cannot assume they see the world as you do. It’s becming increasingly common with Trumpists to believe that Joe Biden is an employee of China. Many believe - this is a new thing on scoial media - that China actually has hundreds of thousands of troops either on the Canadian border, or in the USA itself, and that actual war is already underway but the “mainstream media” won’t cover it. I know what I’m typing seems absurd but millions of Trumpists believe this. Really. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1093 "2020-12-13T19:30:56Z")
One problem is that the people with first-hand knowledge and experience of real and original Nazism are out of power and rapidly dying off. As well, those of us with second-hand knowledge and experience - via our older relatives and their cohort, are exiting the halls of power and just starting to die off. Westerners, IMHO, have become too comfortable and complacent (not in the “weak, decadant free-world” sense of thing but in the “that could never happen here” sense) and sadly, it seems that generations have to learn things through their own experiencing. Or to paraphrase a current-events discussion I heard a year or two ago, we won’t take seriously the dangers of fascism until we ourselves touch the hot stove burner of stupidity ourselves. And it seems that the same thing might apply to pandemics as well. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1094 "2020-12-13T20:11:32Z")
[https://www.axios.com/republicans-electoral-college-objections-mo-brooks-953a318b-0b27-496d-973d-5936081af196.html](https://www.axios.com/republicans-electoral-college-objections-mo-brooks-953a318b-0b27-496d-973d-5936081af196.html) > Several Trump allies, led by Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.), plan on challenging the election results on Jan. 6, when Congress convenes to officially tally the votes from the Electoral College and certify Joe Biden as the president-elect. > > **Why it matters:** Trump has refused to concede the election and has repeated false > … > > **How it works:** Brooks told the Times he plans on challenging the electors in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Georgia, and Wisconsin. > > - In order for an objection to get a debate, he will need at least one senator to join him. It’s not clear so far that any senators will object. > - If an objection is filed, each Chamber would have to debate for 2 hours. For electors to be tossed, the Democratic-controlled House and the Republican-controlled Senate would have to agree. > - Several Senate Republicans, like Mitt Romney and Susan Collins, have said they will not vote to overturn the results of the election. > > … > > **Awkward:** All eyes will be on Vice President Mike Pence, who will be in charge of counting the Electoral College votes and overseeing any objections. > > **The bottom line:** Any objection to the Electoral College count may delay things, but it won’t change the winner of the election. So this is all theater aimed at an audience of Individual-1? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1095 "2020-12-13T20:13:35Z")
Another problem is human nature: You could create a nearly perfect or ideal liberal democracy in a lab, and within one or two generations, it would probably show some signs of strain, particularly if the plant of liberty isn’t watered periodically. And by that, I am not referring to Thomas Jefferson’s infamous quote about bloodshed; I’m simply talking about watering a democracy with the kinds of values and civic action that sustains a democracy – namely a healthy embrace of egalitarianism. But of course that brings to mind the very problem that American democracy has: it’s not an ideal form of democracy; it has long been a democracy that has held the view that freedom and prosperity come from being more violent and out-competing and dominating others for resources. Our is a democracy that has made room for inequality and oppression. Those values may be coming home to roost. But as I started out, even without our flaws, creating and maintaining a society that can govern itself is challenging. The world is not static. New generations of citizens and leaders face new and unique problems, and have to devise their own ways of addressing them. In some ways, it’s amazing we’ve been able to do it for as long as we have. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1096 "2020-12-13T22:05:37Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So this is all theater aimed at an audience of Individual-1? 🙄 Yes. Each objection will obviously be rejected the Democratic-controlled House, but are also strongly likely to be rejected by the Senate as well. It’s not clear whether Georgia’s Senators will participate – the runoff election is the day before, and depending on how close they are the races may not be resolved in time for the joint session. Which would leave the Senate 50-48, with Romney and Collins (and likely some others like Murkowski and Toomey) likely to oppose any objections. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1097 "2020-12-13T22:29:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Another problem is human nature: You could create a nearly perfect or ideal liberal democracy in a lab, and within one or two generations, it would probably show some signs of strain I mean, is there one that hasn’t? All democracies have had their problems. A free country is always a work in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1098 "2020-12-14T00:25:35Z")
I’d say the audience is the trumpers. The GOP wants to be able to say they fought for Trump come primaries time. I also think more Senate Republicans will vote against Trump. Grassley and Toomey (?) have publicly moved on. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1099 "2020-12-14T02:56:39Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > So this is all theater aimed at an audience of Individual-1? 🙄 More like an audience of 70 million +1. This is all about looking good for the Trump base that they need for their own political future. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1100 "2020-12-14T15:17:03Z")
I’m fed up. In cartoons, ‘Throw the book at him’ means to literally throw a book at a character. AIUI, the idiom means to charge someone with every crime and infraction in a book of laws. The Constitution and the U.S. Code are our Books of Laws. Trump has arguably committed treason by directly and indirectly aiding our enemies. Trump has violated the Emoluments Clause. He is committing sedition by trying to overturn legal elections. His actions show that he is mentally unfit to be President. Republican Representatives and Senators have arguably violated Amendment 14, Section 3. We The People need to ‘throw the book’ at all of them. No more pussyfooting around. We need to insist that we take our laws seriously. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182/1101 "2020-12-14T15:56:53Z")
I think the next big day, and the last hurdle, will be January 6th. Not that I expect a successful coup, but I won’t be surprised if between now and then we see waves of conspiracy theories suggesting that the results aren’t legitimate and that we need alternative slates of electors, the House and Senate should intervene, and whatever else. Biden will become president, but his presidency may be severely damaged by the time it starts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182.md?page=56)