# The American Coup Fallout thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 20, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029 "2021-01-20T22:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/341 "2021-06-05T00:12:00Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > He’s President, and he think that makes a difference. > > Not sure what your overall point is. In your ideal world, how would Biden “handle” Putin? I don’t think it matters one way or another. Putin will always do whatever suits him. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > Now, Biden believes his press. He’s President, and he think that makes a difference. I’m concerned that he overestimates his ability to affect the sociopath. > > What makes you think that nonsense? Nothing in your cite supports that. He’s fully capable of delaing with folks like that. Just say “no” and just like dealing with Trump, know that 100% of what omes out of his face is false self-serving garbage. > > Unlike GWB who famously saw Putin’s soul. Childish lapdog he was. I hope you’re both correct about Biden doing well in his encounter with Putin. Don’t forget that the mere fact of Biden’s holding a face-to-face meeting with Putin is a triumph for Putin, propaganda-wise. It gives Putin support for a claim that Russia is on a par with the USA, even though it simply is not (other than in being a nuclear power). LSLGuy, you made some unjustifiable leaps of logic in your reply. For one thing, my cite was clearly _not_ in support of my contention that Biden is likely to do poorly, on balance, out of this meeting—on the contrary, my cite was a concession that Biden had, in the past, failed to make George W. Bush’s mistake about Putin (making your mention of that mistake superfluous in the context). My theory that the meeting will be a net win for Putin and a net loss for the USA is based on observations such as these made by chess champion and political activist Garry Kasparov: > [@](#): > > … “If this meeting takes place — God forbid — that’ll be the biggest geopolitical victory for Putin,” Kasparov, a longtime Putin critic, told Yahoo News. “It’s not just about discussions there or what’s being said or not being said at the meeting. The very fact that Putin could sit at the same table as Trump will help Putin dramatically strengthen his grip and power in Russia.” > … > **[Garry Kasparov: Trump meeting would be huge propaganda win for Putin](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/garry-kasparov-trump-meeting-huge-propaganda-win-putin-201855405.html)** > > Chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov said that if President Donald Trump agrees to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin it would be a gigantic geo-political coup for Moscow. Putin is good at shaping headlines; I wouldn’t bet against the likelihood that he succeeds in making the top story each day about his projection-accusation that Biden is ‘persecuting the noble January 6 Capitol patriots.’ I don’t know that Biden will be able to counteract that. I hope he will, but I’m skeptical. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Not sure what your overall point is. In your ideal world, how would Biden “handle” Putin? … Ideally, Biden’s people would have supplied him with pithy attacks highlighting Putin’s murderous recent history that would displace in the headlines the ‘BIDEN is the real human rights abuser’ stuff that Putin will be shilling. Even more ideally, when push comes to shove, Biden will refuse to let any photos of the encounter be taken at all—denying Putin the propaganda win within Russia (his ‘Russia is on a par with the USA’ spin). ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/342 "2021-06-05T00:31:36Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > > [@SingleMalt](#): > > > > … some of these proposed shenanigans may already be illegal. > > This does not reassure me in the slightest. The previous administration amply demonstrated that illegality by itself is no deterrent if there’s no ready enforcement mechanism. > > GOP legislatures may merrily throw out votes and dare anyone to do anything about it, knowing that their cronies’ obstructions and the slow wheels of justice will render any legal consequences far too late to alter the outcomes of the elections. Yes. Some Republicans may have found inspirational recent electoral developments in Samoa: > [@](#): > > May 23, 2021 6:32 PM > > RNZ Live > > **What’s happened so far:** > > - The FAST party which has a majority of seats was [locked out of Parliament](https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/443222/parliament-locked-as-samoa-turmoil-continues)this morning > > - Today’s sitting was to swear in MPs after the 9 April election > > - Under the constitution Parliament must sit within 45 days of an election and today is the last day for this to be possible > > - Just before midnight on Saturday, Samoa’s Head of State, Tuimaleali’ifano Va’aleto’a Sualauvi II, cancelled the sitting without explanation > > - In an extraordinary hearing on Sunday, the Supreme Court again overruled the head of state’s decision, calling for Parliament to sit today. > > - On Sunday night, the speaker of the legislative assembly, Leaupepe Taimaaiono Toleafoa Faafisi, a member of the caretaker HRPP, said he would abide by the Head of State’s call, not the Supreme Court ruling > > - A Supreme Court decision on 17 May broke a post-election deadlock by handing the new FAST party a 26-25 seat majority over the HRPP - the longstanding governing party headed by Tuilaepa Sailele Malielegaoi. > … That’s a New Zealand source: > **[As it happened: Samoa parliament lockout a 'coup' - FAST](https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/443227/as-it-happened-samoa-parliament-lockout-a-coup-fast)** > > The majority FAST party in Samoa has described the caretaker government's actions this morning in locking it out of parliament in Apia as tantamount to a coup. The lesson Republicans may find intriguing: if you don’t like election results, simply lock the winner(s) out of the statehouse (or county courthouse or what have you). Maddow covered this story: > **[Transcript: The Rachel Maddow Show, 5/24/21](https://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/transcript-rachel-maddow-show-5-24-21-n1268464)** > > Guests: Timothy Snyder The result is still in dispute—so if the “locking out” tactic hasn’t been a total success, it hasn’t been a failure, either. > **[Fiamē Naomi Mataʻafa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Mata%CA%BBafa)** > > Afioga Fiamē Naomi Mataʻafa (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[afɪoŋa fɪameː naomɪ mataʔafa\]; born 29 April 1957) is a Samoan politician and High Chiefess (matai) who has served as the seventh Prime Minister of Samoa and leader of the Faʻatuatua i le Atua Samoa ua Tasi (FAST) party since 2021. > The daughter of Samoa's fir... ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/343 "2021-06-05T00:51:27Z")
I am reminded of [another time](https://www.britannica.com/event/Tennis-Court-Oath) the government locked a legislature out of their meeting place… ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/344 "2021-06-05T02:47:49Z")
The problem with thinking that our system is safe because the law protects us is that the law is ultimately a tool for the government to use to impose norms and values on a society. We didn’t have the most robust democratic system pre-Trump but we at least had a consensus about running elections in an objective way. If enough of the government gets taken over by people who value Trumpian authoritarianism over democracy, the law will stop mattering. Russia technically has laws preventing corruption and upholding fair elections, but if an official actually chose to follow a fair process over protecting Putin’s grip on the country, that official would not be protected by the law whereas any Putin loyalist will always be protected regardless of the law. Any time Putin can use existing law to maintain his grip on the country, he uses it. Any time the law contradicts what he wants to do, he finds an extralegal means to get around it, and there will never be any way for the actual law to be upheld. Any time there is no way around an inconvenient law, the nominal legislature will be forced to change the law. We’re pretty far away from that reality, but we’ve already moved significantly in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/345 "2021-06-05T02:56:16Z")
They’re not going to just change vote outcomes; they’re going to put people in power who can refuse to certify elections. So then it goes to the courts. And then it turns into a screaming match about who really won…which is the entire point. Republicans are done trying to win elections fairly and squarely; they want people to doubt the entire process of democratic elections. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/346 "2021-06-05T03:10:03Z")
I agree with this, and I think it connects to an underrated consequence of the 2020 election: If you’re a Republican and you want to throw a wrench in some democratic process (counting the votes, certifying results etc.) you basically get a free shot. The worst that can happen is that the courts and the rest of the political system stop you and everyone else presses on without you. No one is getting prosecuted for trying to prevent a smooth election and certification process. As long as you aren’t literally leading an armed mob into congress you can take your shot at overturning election results, and you either actually succeed or you walk away with no consequences while building up more support to do it next time. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/347 "2021-06-05T13:11:34Z")
An interesting development came about yesterday where New Mexico Republicans blamed low GOP turnout in this week’s special House election on “lack of confidence in the integrity of election systems.” Stir up distrust and then watch your support melt away in discouragement. The irony would be amusing if the end game wasn’t to leapfrog elections altogether. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/348 "2021-06-05T13:41:56Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > As long as you aren’t literally leading an armed mob into congress you can take your shot at overturning election results… Apparently you can do even that with no consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/349 "2021-06-05T22:09:54Z")
Michael Flynn’s brother, who helped to make sure that the National Guard wasn’t called up to stop the insurrection, took over as commander of all Army Forces in the Pacific today. > **[Michael Flynn’s Brother Takes Command of U.S. Army Pacific](https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-flynns-brother-takes-command-of-us-army-pacific)** > > Unlike his brother, Gen. Charles Flynn does not espouse QAnon or endorse coups. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/350 "2021-06-05T23:53:16Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Michael Flynn’s brother, who helped to make sure that the National Guard wasn’t called up to stop the insurrection, took over as commander of all Army Forces in the Pacific today. > > [Michael Flynn’s Brother Takes Command of U.S. Army Pacific](https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-flynns-brother-takes-command-of-us-army-pacific) > > > [@](#): > > > > Michael Flynn’s Brother Takes Command of U.S. Army Pacific ([Michael Flynn’s Brother Takes Command of U.S. Army Pacific](https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-flynns-brother-takes-command-of-us-army-pacific)) > > > > Unlike his brother, Gen. Charles Flynn does not espouse QAnon or endorse coups. - I found this development disturbing, despite the reports you mention (that Charles hasn’t explicitly endorsed coups). Retired General Russel L. Honore seems to feel alarmed about the American armed forces, and what substantial numbers of the forces may be up to; his tweet today: > He made several tweets on this topic, today. Let’s hope Flynn’s brother truly is NOT “coup-friendly.” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/351 "2021-06-06T03:06:08Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Let’s hope Flynn’s brother truly is NOT “coup-friendly.” What can he do anyway, if he’s banished to the far-off (from D.C.) Pacific? If he takes command of the U. S. Army Atlantic, I’d worry a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/352 "2021-06-06T05:53:04Z")
Kinda missing the point: there are X number of people who think like the Flynns for every Flynn. The US military has been infiltrated by agitators, and it’s being polarized, like other institutions. We’re heading toward war, and the dissolution of the United States as we know it. Prepare. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/353 "2021-06-06T21:47:35Z")
Another Flynn Brother, Joseph, is a big My Pillow fan on Twitter. He called him a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/354 "2021-06-06T23:11:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What can he do anyway, if he’s banished to the far-off (from D.C.) Pacific? Well, they _do_ have planes. Missiles, too. But the planes are probably more relevant to any military coup. _Someone_ would have to take over all the bases in the Western states, as well as those in the Pacific. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/355 "2021-06-07T06:10:56Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Missiles, too. But the planes are probably more relevant to any military coup. _Someone_ would have to take over all the bases in the Western states, as well as those in the Pacific. How so? You can’t take over bases with planes; you can destroy them, but you can’t take them. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/356 "2021-06-07T20:08:24Z")
We already are. The Republican Senators and Congresspersons shouldn’t miss having electricity…or water…or waste management…right? Civil infrastructure. It’s a thing. Until it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/357 "2021-06-07T21:00:42Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > electricity…or water…or waste management Those are socialist things. Real Americans get their water from a stream, and take a dump just uphill from there. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/358 "2021-06-07T21:31:05Z")
You forgot “Fly a kite with a key tied to it to harness lightning for electricity.” Either that, or just knock one of Those People on the head, chain him to a bicycle hooked to a generator, and make him work for his food. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/359 "2021-06-08T01:15:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Real Americans get their water from a stream, and take a dump just uphill from there. Well, downhill, if they’re smart … oh wait. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029/360 "2021-06-08T03:28:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > Missiles, too. But the planes are probably more relevant to any military coup. _Someone_ would have to take over all the bases in the Western states, as well as those in the Pacific. > > How so? You can’t take over bases with planes; you can destroy them, but you can’t take them. You use planes to transport pro-coup military personnel from where you are (hypothetically, at Ft. Shafter, Hawaii, headquarters of US Army Pacific), to those bases commanded by officers you suspect may be unsympathetic to a coup. And once transported, those personnel do…whatever they need to do. Not mysterious, really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-fallout-thread/931029.md?page=19)