# The American flag on the moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 20, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739 "2003-01-20T04:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/21 "2003-01-21T01:14:55Z")
I would think the inital blast of the LEM engine would have been a more powerful ‘explosion’ as the gases are ignited, once ingited the thrust should drop off as it is now a constant fuel feed system (as opposed to some sort of spark ignition system). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/22 "2003-01-21T01:22:52Z")
The astronauts didn’t know that the dust made it very difficult to drive the flagpole into the ground. After a few inches, it was like trying to push the pole into concrete. In later missions they redesigned the pole to allow them to pound on it with a geologist’s hammer, but on Apollo 11 it wasn’t secured very well. That is most likely why it fell over. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/23 "2003-01-21T01:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Bad Astronomer \* > \*\*The astronauts didn’t know that the dust made it very difficult to drive the flagpole into the ground. After a few inches, it was like trying to push the pole into concrete. \*\* Was dust actually the problem? I had the impression they were trying to drive the flagpole into rock… ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/24 "2003-01-21T04:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*NASA paid the fine in November 1987. > \*\* I assume the EPA moved on from the lunar surface to Area 51 immediately thereafter? Tripler And just what are they doing about cleaning up all the junk that keeps falling back down here? ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/25 "2003-01-21T05:24:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tripler \* > \*\*And just what are they doing about cleaning up all the junk that keeps falling back down here? \*\* I thought Jawas scavenged all that stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/26 "2003-01-21T05:44:23Z")
I’ve seen NASA video shot from windows of one of the lunar modules during liftoff, and it showed the flag getting whipped pretty well by the exhaust, but it didn’t fall down. That’s not to say none of them did, but at least one of them remained standing after the ascent of the LM. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/27 "2003-01-21T05:49:56Z")
Cloyd and Gidney took it in after lunar dark, having become naturalized citizens and developing a proper respect for flag etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@The\_Bad\_Astronomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bad_Astronomer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/28 "2003-01-22T06:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Was dust actually the problem? I had the impression they were trying to drive the flagpole into rock… \*\* The dust has odd properties. When you try to push something into it, the stuff compacts and gets very hard to penetrate. All the astronauts who had to dig into it complained about it. As the pole went in, the dust underneath it compacted and the it became difficult to drive it deeper. That’s why they reinforced the flagpole in later missions, so the astronauts could pound on it with a hammer. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/29 "2003-01-22T12:15:34Z")
One of the early Russian moon probes was carrying scores of tiny soviet emblems that scattered upon impact with the surface. The American flags may be gone but we can take heart from numerous hammer & sickle emblems upon the lunar surface.😉 **Bad Astronomer** I just received your book via Amazon, I look forward to reading it! ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/30 "2003-01-22T14:55:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*I’ve seen NASA video shot from windows of one of the lunar modules during liftoff, and it showed the flag getting whipped pretty well by the exhaust, but it didn’t fall down. That’s not to say none of them did, but at least one of them remained standing after the ascent of the LM. \*\* I’ve seen several of these NASA videos and was most impressed by the ferocity of the engine blast, at launch. We’re not talking a minor “breeze” (sorry) generated by the engines. The blast was powerful and kicked up a hell of a dust cloud, and even blew pieces of the coppery foil from the remaining lander all over the place. A camera left behind on the Moon, during one of the Apollo missions, managed to track the lunar module as it ascended. The LM didn’t ascend slowly; it soared into Moon orbit with surprising speed. Re: the flag itself, 30 years of intense bombardment by cosmic/UV radiation has probably reduced it to a tattered white scrap of nylon. In other words, it will make one hell of a display item (and conservators nightmare) some decade in the Smithsonian’s Lunar Museum of Discoverers, Sea of Tranquility Branch. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/31 "2003-01-22T15:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > Re: the flag itself, 30 years of intense bombardment by cosmic/UV radiation has probably reduced it to a tattered white scrap of nylon. I’m not so sure that it’s turned white. Oxygen is required for many of the different photobleaching reactions. There may not be enough oxygen available in the lunar atmosphere, such as it is, to bleach a flag. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/32 "2003-01-22T17:20:56Z")
What you need to do, soo, is get you one of them teleo-scopes and have a look. Shouldn’t be too hard to find, right? I mean, the moon’s a pretty small piece of land! ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/33 "2003-01-22T17:22:14Z")
soo = see ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/34 "2003-01-22T19:47:51Z")
The flag is way too small to see with even the biggest telescope from Earth, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/35 "2003-01-22T20:15:55Z")
Woosh! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c2a13f/32.png) [@pipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pipper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/36 "2003-01-22T20:33:03Z")
I realize the telescope post was in jest, but… I wonder if the Hubbel would be powerful enough to observe if the flag was still there. Do they even bother to use the Hubbel to look at the moon? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/37 "2003-01-22T20:38:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pipper \* > \*\*I realize the telescope post was in jest, but… > > I wonder if the Hubbel would be powerful enough to observe if the flag was still there. Do they even bother to use the Hubbel to look at the moon? \*\* Nope, there’s been threads on this before. The Hubble’s doesn’t have the equipment necessary to view things at the resolution which would be needed to view things on the Moon as small as the flag or even the remains of the landers. ---
**Author:** ![pipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c2a13f/32.png) [@pipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pipper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/38 "2003-01-22T20:59:34Z")
OK, seems like the Hubbel can resolve detail .05 arcseconds across. [Cite.](http://hubblesite.org/sci.d.tech/nuts_.and._bolts/res101.shtml) The moon is 1,800 arcseconds across when viewed from earth (I realize this will be slightly different from Hubbel’s orbit, but let go with it for now). Since the moons diameter is 3476 km and we will make the assumption that a flag is roughly 1 m wide… urgh… uh… carry the two… And we have the result that a flag is roughly .0005 arcseconds wide when viewed from earth. Which puts it at a size 100 times smaller than the Hubbel can resolve. Bummer. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/39 "2003-01-22T21:17:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pipper \* > \*\*Which puts it at a size 100 times smaller than the Hubbel can resolve. > > Bummer. \*\* Also, the Moon is moving relative to the HST. With no ability to track objects at the speed required, any attempt to photograph an object on the surface of the Moon would result in a blur. Cite: [http://hubble.gsfc.nasa.gov/faq.html](http://hubble.gsfc.nasa.gov/faq.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739/40 "2003-01-22T21:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pipper \* > \*\*OK, seems like the Hubbel can resolve detail .05 arcseconds across. [Cite.](http://hubblesite.org/sci.d.tech/nuts_.and._bolts/res101.shtml) > > The moon is 1,800 arcseconds across when viewed from earth (I realize this will be slightly different from Hubbel’s orbit, but let go with it for now). > > Since the moons diameter is 3476 km and we will make the assumption that a flag is roughly 1 m wide… urgh… uh… carry the two… > > And we have the result that a flag is roughly .0005 arcseconds wide when viewed from earth. > > Which puts it at a size 100 times smaller than the Hubbel can resolve. > > Bummer. \*\* There’s a private company that’s planning on sending a spacecraft to the Moon to photograph the various landing sites. While I’m not sure as to the resolution of the photographs, they _will_ be good enough for us to see the vehicles on the landing sites. So it’s possible that we’ll get a good look at the flags here shortly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-flag-on-the-moon/149739.md?page=3)