The American Left vs. the American People?

[elucidator]

“…The American left didn’t support WWII until Germany invaded Stalin’s Soviet Union…”

And all this time I thought it had something to do with, like, Hawaii! Say what you will about friend Beagle’s view of history, it is certainly creative and unrestrained by such mundane considerations like fact.

[Zoe]

Responses to Beagle:

So, in a nutshell, let every other nation be bureaucratic, centralized, Leftist, haughty, and self-loving. We’ll make the money and save them when their systems fail. That’s been reality since WWI.

Our own bureaucratic, haughty, self-loving and partially centralized government will teach them a thing or two, huh? In European thinking, WWI was the day before yesterday. (By the way, isn’t “self-loving” another name for patriotism?

“Social justice” is code for “government redistribution of wealth.”

You’ve broken the code. What are we gonna do now? Ok, my fellow leftists! (wink, wink) The new code words: “simple human decency.”

If you think I don’t know something about “social justice” feel free to point it out.

I’ll just keep proving my point with scholarly articles.

<snip>

Unlike a leftist, I assume I must win the war of ideas through persuasion, not at the point of a gun.

Beagle, have you ever had anyone hold a gun on you to make you vote for a Democrat? Have you ever had anyone hold a gun on you to convince you to support gun control laws? Women’s rights? A balanced budget? Peaceful solutions to international problems? A ban on the death penalty? Gay rights? Clean air? Public education? Medicare?

Do you think that these issues are somehow Marxist?

Do you see any difference between Democrats and Marxists? Liberals and Marxists? Socialists and Marxists?
You can deal with the realities of what is now largely a two party system in the United States (Republicans and Democrats), or you can live in a delusion that even your “scholarly article” does not claim – that Democrats are Marxists.

[Aminal]

@astorian

Just a few things for the Lefties to consider.

When I was a kid, NO self-respecting blue-collar Irish or Italian New Yorker would ever have dreamed of voting Republican. Franklin Roosevelt was a deity in my neighborhood, and people still reviled Herbert Hoover as if he’d been in the WHite House only yesterday. Back in the 1960’s, the very word “Republican” wasn’t in my grandfather’s vocabulary. To him, there were “Democrats” and “Republicanbastards” (one word). Blue collar, urban, ethnic Caucasians were the backbone of the Democratic Party until fairly recently. If you’d told such folks back in 1968 “Before long, you’ll be voting Republican more often than not,” they’d have scoffed at the suggestion.

And, incidentally, the same was true here in the South. Rednecks used to vote Democratic reflexively.

So, you on the Left, how did you lose your core constituency? How did you lose people who always voted a straight Democratic ticket, and (at some level) still WANT to?

I don’t expect I’ll get any thoughtful, rational, articulate replies. I expect I’ll hear a lot of self-righteous, vile, venomous nonsense about the GOP’s evil propaganda machine. And frankly, that’ll be fine with me. The longer the Left chooses to think that way, the longer we Pubbies will continue to win elections.

But for your own sake, you might want to ask yourself, “Where did we screw up? How did we alienate our most loyal voters? How could we have been so stupid?”

But I don’t expect any of you will.

Sorry for the whole qoute, didn’t want to leave anything out. I know where you are coming from though, all of my older relatives were staunch Democrats, they would have never thought about voting Republicans, perhaps because they lived through the deperession of course and had tremendous allegiance to Roosvelt.

There has definitely been a turn though, as I do not think a Democrat hasn’t really carried the South completely since Carter. I think a lot of the South thinks of the Democrats as the party of California, New York, etc. But I guess they may think they don’t have to carry the South completely anymore.

[Beagle]

“Avoiding a nuclear war” – Whoever actually noticed that the US was constrained in Vietnam by the aggressive, expansionist, and uniquely murderous Communists gets a gold star.

NOTE: American Communists gave the bomb to the Soviets and got us into the proliferation mess we are in now.

I wish just one person would read any of the articles I posted. It shows that nobody has.

2Sense if you didn’t have ad hominem, you’d have nothing. I don’t want anyone to have nothing, so just do the best you can.

[Blalron]

@Beagle

NOTE: American Communists gave the bomb to the Soviets and got us into the proliferation mess we are in now.

Cite?

[jshore]

Beagle: Please keep in mind, the StraightDope is about fighting ignorance, not spreading ignorance.

[MMI]

Beagle Back to the WWII thing for a sec.

First off, as has been noted above Liberals != Socialists != Communists != Leftists. If you want to say that the first three fall under the blanket category of “Leftists” than so be it, although the loss of precision should be enough to make any honest advocate blanch.

Liberals, led by their patron saint Franklin*, were ahead of the curve anti-Hitler wise (if only because of FDR). Lend lease, various modifications of the neutrality act, arming of merchant ships - all went through a democratic congress (where the president’s liberal wing took the lead). Saving England/Europe from Hitlerism/Naziism - priority for the liberals.

American Communists, led by Soviet tools, were anti-Hitler up until Molotov-Ribbentrop, then neutral/anti-interventionist on the German question, until June 22, 1941, when they saw the light, which no doubt arrived via telegraph from Moscow.

Conservatives, especially Republican conservatives, were well behind the curve. I believe the 1940 campaign involved FDR mocking the isolationists (Martin, Barton and Fish?), stealing their support from beneath them. Certainly Lindbergh and the America Firsters were waaaaaaaaay behind the curve. In general, the (conservative) isolationists contemplated war only after December 7th, and then mostly against Japan. If I consider the America Firsters conservatives and therefore “rightists”

So to summarize:

Liberals: Anti-Hitler
Communists: Soviet tools - not anti Hitler 'til 6/41
Leftists: No one position

Conservatives: Isolationist
America Firsters: Pro Hitler 'til 12/41, then silent
Rightists: No single position, but on board the anti-Nazi train a heck of a lot later than leftists, 'specially liberals

*FDR was undoubtedly an elite. He was considered a traitor by his fellow elites for going over to the liberal/democratic side when they remained Republican