# The American Public is Fucking Gruesome **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550 "2011-05-03T05:58:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/261 "2011-05-08T01:42:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think you’re projecting a fair bit into **NDD** ’s argument there, **Finn**. That was 80% Finn, and 20% NDD. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/262 "2011-05-08T08:06:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > His first set of claims included the idea that “Again, for sure violence begets violence… and eventually someone will take the higher ground, cut their losses and call a truce.” He both defended and (mildly) criticized the whole violence-begets-violence bit while maintaining that unwarranted violence was a bad thing, something that’s hardly a revelatory argument. My whole point was that there wasn’t a coherent principle at work besides “bad things are bad” and that muddying the water with v-b-v principles and such wasn’t helping. _“Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love… Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.” -MLK_ The only criticism I have of the quote above, is hate and violence can only be mitigated, never eradicated, but that’s just common sense, and I’m sure King knew this. Regardless, he lived and died by these words, because his conviction was so great on this very principle. It’s not hard to imagine how much uglier things would have escalated had he eschewed this notion as non-sense in favor of more cowardly acts of retaliation and promoting rioting. He would’ve died, probably sooner rather than later, but the repercussion of acts of violence against the monstrous atrocities racist whites at the time had sown for so long, would’ve made it all pointless (regardless if you think it would’ve been warranted, in terms of vengeance or justice). You mention muddying the waters with the principals of VbV, but there are real world scenarios where it’s demonstrably true. Almost crystal clear IMHO. _That’s_ what I meant by “cutting your losses.” Did it eradicate racism and hate? Violence and riots? Of course not. But I don’t think anyone can argue his example of modern martyrdom for peace made the world a far better place in the long run. What point, exactly, are you trying to make, here? The world is certainly not black and white, but maybe it’s not nearly as gray as you think either. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/263 "2011-05-08T15:42:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think you’re projecting a fair bit into **NDD** ’s argument there, **Finn**. Not at all. He set up a deliberate analogy between Nazism as an ideology that should have been discredited, and Bin Laden who should be discredited and the whole of Islam. That was his explicit formulation, that we were able to “dis” the Nazis who were the leaders of Nazism, because Nazism was discredited, but that we weren’t able to “dis” Bin Laden because Islam as a whole is not a discredited ideology and Bin Laden is one of the leaders of Islam as a whole. It’s a clear, unambiguous claim that we can’t “dis” a Jihadist because he’s a leader for Islam as a whole rather than for his splinter sect of extremist Muslims. And it clearly sought to conflate Jihadism with Islam in general, Bin Laden’s leadership position within AQ with leadership of the Muslim community in general, and Nazism as an ideology that should be discredited with Jihadism as an ideology that should be discredited while at the same time conflating Jihadism with Islam in general. Do you contend that NDD wasn’t saying that Nazism and Jihadism are both ideologies that should be discredited? Are you contending that he did not conflate Jihadism with Islam in general? Are you contending that he did not conflate Bin Laden’s leadership role in a Jihadist organization with a leadership role for Muslims in general? Are you contending that these facts do not show that NDD "just compare[d] Nazism as a discredited ideology with Islam? " > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > That was 80% Finn, and 20% NDD. You’re welcome to point out where I’m actually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/264 "2011-05-09T00:42:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s not like mourning and dancing in the streets and straining to come up with the most violent imagery possible to explain just how _hard_ we hate that guy are the only two options. People are like making videos of themselves getting crunk and chanting USA like we won the World Cup or some shit. > > What I’m saying is that, if you’re one of the people turning this into a holiday and a cause for actual _joy_, you’re not doing it because it was fair that he got killed because he killed other people. Whether or not it was just that he got killed is a different question from whether or not we’re delighted by it. If we’re celebrating this, it’s because our bloodlust got satisfied, not because a sense of moral rightness called for Bin Laden not to go free. We were pissed, we caused some destruction, it felt good, and we’re rollicking in it – somehow the combination of a bad thing happening and us retaliating has us feeling better than if the bad thing hadn’t happened in the first place. The math only works there if you account for the fact that we actually enjoyed the violence. And that’s a road we generally consider to be a bad one to find somebody walking on. It’s one of many things that we condemn about, for instance, terrorist organizations: conflating their intellectual sense that they’ve been aggrieved with the visceral satisfaction of killing somebody for it. I didn’t party, or rollick, or run around waving flags, or any such thing. I felt a grim satisfaction. It isn’t justice, because it does not balance out all the lives he helped destroy, so vengeance is close enough for now. But I understand why people would celebrate his death. I absolutely refuse to chastise or condemn them for being human. Do you feel any guilt when an exterminator kills vermin? It’s all the same to me. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/265 "2011-05-09T00:56:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Was that really all too complicated for you? No, not too complicated at all. Just made up almost out of whole cloth, and completely missing the actual point that \*\*NDD/b] was making. You’re still stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/266 "2011-05-09T01:39:58Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I didn’t party, or rollick, or run around waving flags, or any such thing. I felt a grim satisfaction. It isn’t justice, because it does not balance out all the lives he helped destroy, so vengeance is close enough for now. But I understand why people would celebrate his death. I absolutely refuse to chastise or condemn them for being human. > > Do you feel any guilt when an exterminator kills vermin? It’s all the same to me. What you said, and which I took to be a response in part to my own post, was this: > [@](#): > > And now he is dead, the “self appointed saints” come out of the woodwork and scold us for being glad the son of a bitch is gone. > > Cry me a fucking river. I’m glad he is dead, I hope he experienced indescribable pain, and if desecrating his corpse and wrapping it in bacon could ensure him a quicker trip to hell, even better. > > Get off the high horse. The animal is dead. Good riddance. > > Santimonious bunch of pricks. Fuck the hell off. You didn’t say anything about grim satisfaction. You said specifically that you were happy and that his suffering would do you good. I was responding to that - I agree that it would be a dumb thing to do to criticize anybody for feeling satisfied. I don’t know what you mean by calling it “human” to feel the way you were describing in your first post, but I don’t agree that it’s so universal that there’s nothing about it that’s worth trying to change. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/267 "2011-05-09T01:50:07Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No, not too complicated at all. And yet you can’t respond to let alone comprehend the facts of the matter, but you’re attempting to handwave them away and claiming that somehow I made up NDD’s own words. I had hoped that you’d at least have something other than vomit, but I keep having to remind myself never to underestimate the synergy of idiocy and aggravation. > [@mhendo](#): > > completely missing the actual point that \*\*NDD/b] was making. No, I discussed the actual point he was making, ya know, the one where he conflates Nazi leadership with Bin Laden as a Muslim leader and Nazism as an ideology with Islam as a whole rather than Bin Laden’s faction of Jihadists. You could have even responded to that, had you understood it. Tough break there. > [@mhendo](#): > > You’re still stupid. Brilliant factual refutation. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/268 "2011-05-09T02:28:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you’re snarking about me not reading it… because you didn’t comprehend it? Really? Okay, let’s play remedial Dope. > > -When we executed Nazi war criminals we were able to display their bodies to the public. > -This was because Nazism was a vile ideology that was discredited and we could “dis the leaders”. > -Islam however is not discredited. > -So we can not “dis” Bin Laden, as he is one of the leaders of Islam similar to the way that the Nuremberg trials punished the leaders of Nazism. > -Further, showing the body of Bin Laden would anger “them”, Muslims in general. > -And we need the support of “them”, Muslims in general, in order to protect us from other Muslims. > -Because, after all, Bin Laden is one of their leaders, we can not dis him because rather than being discredited Islam has lots of followers. > > Was that really all too complicated for you? And your point is? The one that made you ask NDD, “What the fuck is wrong with you?”? I didn’t see NDD passing any judgment on Islam. The comparison he made was of the the RealWorld political circumstances that dictated different treatment for different mass murderers. I don’t understand your “What the fuck is wrong with you?” comment." ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/269 "2011-05-09T02:44:04Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > And your point is? That comparing Bin Laden as a ‘Muslim leader’ (rather than a leader of only his splinter-sect) with the actual leadership of the Nazi party, and Nazism with Islam as a whole rather than Bin Laden’s splinter-sect is Bad Thing. I’m not sure how exactly I could have been clearer. What confused you? Perhaps an analogy or two would help: -It’s the difference between saying “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Baruch Goldstein because there are a lot of Jews who still support their faith.” And “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Baruch Goldstein because a small but violently ideological splinter group of Jews might have taken that as an affront and engaged in retaliatory violence.” -It’s the difference between saying “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Scott Roeder because there are a lot of Christians who still support their faith.” And “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Scott Roeder because a small but violently ideological splinter group of militant Christians might have taken that as an affront and engaged in retaliatory violence.” It’s the problem talking about a leader of a political movement and equating them with a leader of a religious splinter group. It’s the problem with likening Nazi leaders’ role in their political movement with terrorists’ roles in Islam as a whole rather than their religious splinter groups. It’s fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/270 "2011-05-09T02:53:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That comparing Bin Laden as a ‘Muslim leader’ (rather than a leader of only his splinter-sect) with the actual leadership of the Nazi party, and Nazism with Islam as a whole rather than Bin Laden’s splinter-sect is Bad Thing. I’m not sure how exactly I could have been clearer. Nope, I still don’t think your response to NDD had a valid point. He didn’t posit OBL as a major leader of Islam. He just made an observation about political power. As has been said, you’re reading too much into it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/271 "2011-05-09T03:03:17Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > He didn’t posit OBL as a major leader of Islam. Yes, he did. That was exactly the parallel he set up: > [@](#): > > At the time Nazism was a discredited ideology, so we could dis the leaders and get away with it. Currently, Islam is the second largest religion in the world, and most Muslims take their faith seriously. President Obama thought it would be unwise to anger them needlessly, especially when we need the support of as many as possible to protect us from the others. The leaders of Nazism are compared with Bin Laden as a leader, the reaction of people to their leaders being “dissed” is compared with the relation Muslims as a group to Bin Laden being ‘dissed’, and the actual splinter-sect who respected and followed Bin Laden is conflated with Islam as a whole. This isn’t complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/272 "2011-05-09T03:15:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, he did. > > The leaders of Nazism are compared with Bin Laden as a leader, the reaction of people to their leaders being “dissed” is compared with the relation Muslims as a group to Bin Laden being ‘dissed’, and the actual splinter-sect who respected and followed Bin Laden is conflated with Islam as a whole. > This isn’t complicated. Well, I’d be interested to know if anyone else, sees it that way. Not that majority opinion = correct, but when it comes to interpreting a written remark that doesn’t require specialist knowledge, big majority opinion usually = correct. You might have a point if \*\*NDD \*\*implied that OBL’s body should have been subjected to degradation’s similar to executed Nazis, but I don’t see that he did. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/273 "2011-05-09T03:24:36Z")
The equivalence isn’t required to be based on Osama deserving treatment similar to the Nazi leadership’s corpses. The equivalence is between the negative reaction of people who might have followed Nazism before it was discredited upon seeing their leaders dissed, and their reaction to and Islam-as-a-group to seeing Bin Laden dissed. That’s the salient fact, that the comparison wasn’t between the Nazis’ followers and Bin Laden’s followers, but the Nazis’ followers and Muslims as a whole. Again: -It’s the difference between saying “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Baruch Goldstein because there are a lot of Jews who still support their faith.” And “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Baruch Goldstein because a small but violently ideological splinter group of Jews might have taken that as an affront and engaged in retaliatory violence.” -It’s the difference between saying “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Scott Roeder because there are a lot of Christians who still support their faith.” And “We could have dragged Hitler’s body through the streets by his ankles because, despite his status as a Nazi leader, Nazism was discredited. However, we couldn’t have done the same thing to Scott Roeder because a small but violently ideological splinter group of militant Christians might have taken that as an affront and engaged in retaliatory violence.” \*-It’s the difference between "At the time Nazism was a discredited ideology, so we could dis the leaders and get away with it. Currently, Islam is the second largest religion in the world, and most Muslims take their faith seriously. President Obama thought it would be unwise to anger them needlessly, especially when we need the support of as many as possible to protect us from the others. " and “At the time Nazism was a discredited ideology, so we could dis the leaders and get away with it. Currently, Bin Laden’s followers are a small but dangerous population. President Obama thought it would be unwise to grant them a rallying cry.” \* Do you really not grok the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/274 "2011-05-09T06:14:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Like it or not, most human beings are fascinated by gore. Absolutely. I wonder what kind of studies have been done to figure out what this is about? Because I’m definitely fascinated by gore, although not in association with revenge. I have exactly zero interest in seeing any particular person’s viscera, I’m just fascinated by it in a general way. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/275 "2011-05-09T17:41:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Absolutely. > > I wonder what kind of studies have been done to figure out what this is about? Because I’m definitely fascinated by gore, although not in association with revenge. I have exactly zero interest in seeing any particular person’s viscera, I’m just fascinated by it in a general way. Seeing it up close a few times will cure you of that. The fascination wears off pretty quick like. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/276 "2011-05-09T20:06:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, I discussed the actual point he was making, ya know, the one where he conflates Nazi leadership with Bin Laden as a Muslim leader and Nazism as an ideology with Islam as a whole rather than Bin Laden’s faction of Jihadists. You could have even responded to that, had you understood it. Again, understood it fine. Just disagree with your interpretation, because it completely (and apparently willfully) ignores the actual point that he was making. But i guess this is just (another) one of those occasions where everyone else is wrong and you are the only one who grasps the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/277 "2011-05-09T20:41:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Do you contend that NDD wasn’t saying that Nazism and Jihadism are both ideologies that should be discredited? Are you contending that he did not conflate Jihadism with Islam in general? Are you contending that he did not conflate Bin Laden’s leadership role in a Jihadist organization with a leadership role for Muslims in general? Are you contending that these facts do not show that NDD "just compare[d] Nazism as a discredited ideology with Islam? " I don’t really see any of that in his post, to be honest. I think you’re imputing a lot of stuff to that post that, at best, is not readily apparent. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/278 "2011-05-09T22:03:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t really see any of that in his post, to be honest. I think you’re imputing a lot of stuff to that post that, at best, is not readily apparent. He created an analogy, comparing how Nazis would have responded to their leaders being “dissed” with how Muslims as a group would react to Bin Laden’s corpse being disrespected. The analogy falls apart if Muslims don’t look at Bin Laden in the same manner that Nazis looked at their leaders. It’s predicated on that equivalence. The accurate analogy would have been Nazis with Jihadists (or, at least, those Jihadists in Bin Laden’s camp), not Muslims as a whole. Instead, NDD compared Nazis as a group with Muslims as a group, and Nazis’ reactions to their leaders being mistreated to Muslims as a group’s reaction to Bin Laden being mistreated. Acting as if “Nazi Leaders is to followers of Nazism” is analogous to “Bin Laden is to Muslims as a group” is fucked up. The analogy itself and the conflation between Jihads and Muslims as a group is what’s at issue. > [@mhendo](#): > > Just disagree with your interpretation, because it completely (and apparently willfully) ignores the actual point that he was making. Nope, you’re still neither addressing let alone understanding what I’ve actually said. Of course it directly addresses exactly the point he was saying, which was that the reaction of Nazis to their leadership’s treatment is analogous to Muslims, as a group’s, reaction to Bin Laden’s treatment. That’s why NDD didn’t say that mistreating Bin Laden’s remains would anger Bin Laden’s followers, but Muslims as a group. You could actually address the facts any time now. Or maybe a few more bandwagon fallacies and ad hominem fallacies will really bolster your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/279 "2011-05-09T22:33:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > He created an analogy, comparing how Nazis would have responded to their leaders being “dissed” with how Muslims as a group would react to Bin Laden’s corpse being disrespected. The analogy falls apart if Muslims don’t look at Bin Laden in the same manner that Nazis looked at their leaders. It’s predicated on that equivalence. I don’t think the leadership aspect is a necessary part of the analogy. Merely being a member of the group is sufficient for the analogy. Some people (such as bin Laden himself) have a vested interest in portraying the West as being deliberately hostile to Islam as a whole. The treatment of bin Laden’s serves as a counter-balance to this message: by not desecrating his corpse, we made it clear that it was not his faith that made him our enemy. When it came to the Nazi war crimes tribunals, however, there was no such need to make that distinction: there was no need to send a message to other Nazis that we weren’t opposed to them, because we were explicitly dedicated to the destruction of their political movement. At least, that’s how I read the analogy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550/280 "2011-05-09T22:49:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think the leadership aspect is a necessary part of the analogy. Even if it wasn’t, there’s still the same problem with: “Nazi war criminals are to Nazis in general as a group” is analogous to “Bin Laden is to Muslims as a group.” This thread, after all, was about people who wanted to see pictures of Bin Laden’s corpse. NDD’s comments were about people who saw the Nazis’ corpses, not about people who wanted to anti-religiously desecrate Bin Laden’s corpse. We could have shown pictures of his corpse _and_ given him a full Islamic funeral, they’re not mutually exclusive. And the analogy that was set up was specifically about how the Nazi leaders could be disrespected because their ideology had been discredited, but [other person] couldn’t be disrespected because [other ideology] is still quite popular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-public-is-fucking-gruesome/580550.md?page=15)