# The Americans; season 5 (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255 "2017-03-03T01:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/441 "2017-05-18T15:11:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have been seeing a surprising amount of reaction online, including from professional critics, arguing that the woman they killed was basically an innocent. Her husband? Sure. But her? No way. She was 16 when her war crimes started, which is not exactly a child (a 16-year-old who commits murder in the US is almost guaranteed to be tried as an adult); she was presumably older by the end, if she notoriously killed thousands of Soviet POWs. She maybe have been guilty in the sense that she did the things that she was accused of but she was in an impossible situation in the middle of a war. Maybe she wasn’t technically innocent buts he certainly wasn’t a threat to anyone nor a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/442 "2017-05-18T15:16:02Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Yep, huge point: > > Paige chose family over religion last week. This week Elizabeth makes it clear she chooses marriage/family over mission. > > I guess they keep Henry by letting him go (free, free, set them free - Sting. Urh!). Don’t you know - the Russians love their children, too! I heard that somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/443 "2017-05-18T15:58:16Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > She maybe have been guilty in the sense that she did the things that she was accused of but she was in an impossible situation in the middle of a war. Maybe she wasn’t technically innocent buts he certainly wasn’t a threat to anyone nor a traitor. Or it was bullshit justification after the fact. She was notorious enough that the Soviets knew her name and had been looking for her. She was more than a 16 year old innocent caught up in things. She knew she had to hide her identity from the very moment that she entered the hospital. Pretty savvy if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/444 "2017-05-18T16:51:09Z")
[QUOTE=QuickSilver;20216081Finally, what the fuck is Elizabeth thinking with that “Let’s just go home” bullshit? She’s going to destroy her kids’ lives by dragging them to Russia? This is all about her and her starting to lose her faith in the mission but wanting not to become someone she’d consider a traitor.[/QUOTE] Going home may be a lot harder than it was at the end of last season. Even if Paige and Henry were willing to go with a minimum of fuss, it’s doubtful they’ll be allowed to go. Gabriel might’ve had the clout and the respect to just send them home when they were burnt out. But Claudia likely expects to work them to death and then put a bullet in the backs of their head when they are no longer useful. The Rezidentura have already had “concerns” about Philip’s allegiance, and Gabriel tacitly warned the Jennings a few episodes back that the KGB are not their friends. I think the end might not be Stan Beeman and the FBI closing in on Philip & Elizabeth, they may have to go on the run, just like the woman they just assassinated. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/445 "2017-05-18T16:53:40Z")
When Elizabeth said, “let’s get out of here,” for a moment, I thought that she meant that they should take the kids and make a run for it and then the next sentence: “let’s go home,” was just a gut punch. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/446 "2017-05-18T17:50:32Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Fwiw, in every case, that is not how I read those situations. Me neither. I was like, “Ehhhh…no.” > [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > What was it the woman was supposed to have done? I know Claudia said she killed a number of people, but the way I heard her talk she said she was basically liquored up, raped, and she was telling the Nazis things. I didn’t get that she admitted to killing anyone, and not hundreds or thousands of people. > > Did she ever actually admit to killing people and I missed it? Hell, I thought she WAS the wrong person but only admitted to parts of it since she knew they were going to kill her and she didn’t want her husband killed too. That was a hard scene to watch. A lot of people missed this somehow. Even Alan Sepinwall, who I thought watched things multiple times, pausing and taking notes. Here was her admission: > [@](#): > > HUSBAND: “The first time?” > NATALIE: “That I shot them. Soviet prisoners. It wasn’t me, in my body. It wasn’t me.” > HUSBAND: “Natalie…” (tears in eyes) > NATALIE: “I couldn’t say. How could I say? I wanted to be the person you thought I was.” ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/447 "2017-05-18T18:53:53Z")
Yep that, and I remember something like: ‘they made me so drunk I could hardly stand up/see’. Can’t recall which. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/448 "2017-05-18T18:58:32Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Going home may be a lot harder than it was at the end of last season. Even if Paige and Henry were willing to go with a minimum of fuss, it’s doubtful they’ll be allowed to go. Gabriel might’ve had the clout and the respect to just send them home when they were burnt out. But Claudia likely expects to work them to death and then put a bullet in the backs of their head when they are no longer useful. > > The Rezidentura have already had “concerns” about Philip’s allegiance, and Gabriel tacitly warned the Jennings a few episodes back that the KGB are not their friends. I think the end might not be Stan Beeman and the FBI closing in on Philip & Elizabeth, they may have to go on the run, just like the woman they just assassinated. Show seems to be headed for, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall”, and they won’t have to run and hide. They’ll simply be cut loose by the dissolution of the USSR and find themselves free to live the rest of their lives as “The Americans”. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/449 "2017-05-18T19:41:35Z")
As you might have guessed, my own take is juuuuust a bit less rosy, and I see the Jennings family and their likely fates serving as a sort of allegory for the USSR when it was broken apart into the separate republics. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/450 "2017-05-18T20:10:31Z")
They’ll just quit when they want. Claudia would try emotional blackmail for while but i’s up to them. The only considerations at this point are Paige and Henry. Don’t understand they might need permission or something. They completed any obligation many years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/451 "2017-05-18T22:19:00Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > She maybe have been guilty in the sense that she did the things that she was accused of but she was in an impossible situation in the middle of a war. Maybe she wasn’t technically innocent buts he certainly wasn’t a threat to anyone nor a traitor. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Yep that, and I remember something like: ‘they made me so drunk I could hardly stand up/see’. Can’t recall which. Yes, it was well-established by the writers that the woman was anything but a remorseless traitor. My post #427: > [@](#): > > …The writers were definitely _not_ positing that shooting her was an act of justice. On the contrary, the incident only continues this season’s theme of the corruption that’s rampant in 1980s Soviet society. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > … That’s a very strong statement, given that there is pretty much incontrovertible proof you are wrong, at least when it comes to showrunners Joel Fields and Joe Weisberg. And it’s pretty much impossible, on this show especially, for “the writers” to have a perspective completely contrary to theirs. > > On the [Americans Insider Podcast](http://tunein.com/radio/The-Americans-Slate-TV-Club-Insider-p680614/) that dropped today, Fields said the following, starting at the 4:11 mark, in the presence of his writing partner Joe Weisberg: > > > [@](#): > > > > As Joe [Weisberg] said, the fact that there’s her husband, and he can’t pull the trigger, he can’t kill someone who is as deserving of being executed as anyone they’ve ever killed, and he just can’t do it–he’s not there any more. And there she is afterwards, and rather than arguing with him, she essentially chooses the marriage over the mission. It’s a huge moment for their marriage in the long arc of this show. She’d rather go home than continue to sort this out with that level of pain. > > I actually wouldn’t have gone quite that far, but there it is. (You can’t cite death of the author here, because you were making an assertion about what the writers intended.) Nothing in the interview-remarks you quoted changes my assertion that the writers did not intend us to see the shooting of the woman as “an act of justice” by Soviet agents (in this case, Elizabeth Jennings). What you are not seeing is that “as deserving of being executed as anyone they’ve ever killed” _is not the same thing as_ “is deserving of being executed.” Weisberg is making a comparison among all the people we’ve seen P&E kill (and placing the Russian woman at the far end of the continuum)–but that does not mean that her killing is ‘deserved.’ It just means that it comes closer to being ‘deserved’ than do the many other killings we’ve watched them commit. Weisberg nowhere asserts that any of the people killed by P&E actually were “deserving of being executed.” If you can come up with a quotation from Weisberg or a member of his writing staff that does _more_ than simply make a ranking along the ‘less deserved or more deserved’ scale–a quotation that states outright that a killing IS ‘deserved’–than that will be something else. As it stands, I agree with QuickSilver that what that particular killing showed us is _not_ ‘the execution of Justice’ but instead: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Ordering her execution was a test of P&E’s commitment. It’s also a classic example of propaganda and methods used by the Communist party to coerce and maintain loyalty and obedience to the Soviet ideals. Those who fail to comply are traitors. … The scene showed the moral corruption of the Soviet system–it was not intended by Weisberg or his staff as a depiction of an act of justice. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/452 "2017-05-18T22:40:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If you can come up with a quotation from Weisberg or a member of his writing staff that does _more_ than simply make a ranking along the ‘less deserved or more deserved’ scale–a quotation that states outright that a killing IS ‘deserved’–than that will be something else. :rolleyes: So before you read this, you would have already taken for granted that Joe and Joel would see Natalie as being just as deserving of execution as, say, Elizabeth’s rapist from the pilot? Riiiight. :dubious: ETA: Again, if you watch this show and see Philip and Elizabeth as the bad guys, you’re either watching it wrong or the showrunners have failed to achieve what they set out to do, depending on how you look at it. From [another Slate interview:](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/interrogation/2013/01/the_americans_fx_spy_series_creators_joe_weisberg_and_joel_fields.html) > [@](#): > > **Weisberg** : In the early days we used to worry: Will we be able to get people to sympathize with KGB officers? Then we cast Keri and Matthew and started watching, and that question evaporated, because they were so likable and sympathetic that we stopped worrying about it. Then we started writing the stories, and they do some terrible things, so we started worrying about it again. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/453 "2017-05-18T22:55:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > :rolleyes: So before you read this, you would have already taken for granted that Joe and Joel would see Natalie as being just as deserving of execution as, say, Elizabeth’s rapist from the pilot? Riiiight. :dubious: The Weisberg quotation you brought up said: > [@](#): > > As Joe [Weisberg] said, the fact that there’s her husband, and he can’t pull the trigger, he can’t kill someone who is as deserving of being executed as anyone they’ve ever killed, and he just can’t do it–he’s not there any more. … It’s clear he was making a point about Philip’s state of mind. Even so, I think you’d be on shaky ground if you claimed that Weisberg’s intent in the pilot was to show that the rapist was “deserving of execution,” or that in general Weisberg’s message is that extra-judicial killing is a good thing or something to admire. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: Again, if you watch this show and see Philip and Elizabeth as the bad guys, you’re either watching it wrong or the showrunners have failed to achieve what they set out to do, depending on how you look at it. To what does this refer? I haven’t tried to make the case that Philip and Elizabeth are “the bad guys.” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/454 "2017-05-18T23:02:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Show seems to be headed for, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall”, and they won’t have to run and hide. They’ll simply be cut loose by the dissolution of the USSR and find themselves free to live the rest of their lives as “The Americans”. That’s what Robert Hansen and Aldrich Ames thought, but the collapse of the USSR led to huge breaches in the Soviet security archives and years later there was a reckoning, just like in the most recent episode. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/455 "2017-05-18T23:48:16Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > To what does this refer? I haven’t tried to make the case that Philip and Elizabeth are “the bad guys.” If not, sorry. There have definitely been people ITT who have done so, and I thought you were among them. But my point still stands for those who make that case, and hope for them to be punished in the end. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/456 "2017-05-19T00:17:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If not, sorry. There have definitely been people ITT who have done so, and I thought you were among them. But my point still stands for those who make that case, and hope for them to be punished in the end. There’s a difference between being “bad guys” and being “the bad guys”. P&E are certainly not the antagonists in _The Americans_. But you could make a very convincing argument that they would be going to hell (if one believed in such a thing). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/457 "2017-05-19T00:27:17Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > There’s a difference between being “bad guys” and being “the bad guys”. P&E are certainly not the antagonists in _The Americans_. But you could make a very convincing argument that they would be going to hell (if one believed in such a thing). You definitely could! I acknowledge that. But such an argument would _also have to consign Joe and Joel to going there as well_. And that’s the key point: these showrunners have something of a cockeyed sense of ethics in some ways. I love it, but I can’t necessarily defend it against many of these kinds of arguments. But if you watch the show and don’t understand that this is their morality, you’re going to be looking for punishments and “karma’s a bitch” type stuff by the finale that is unlikely to come, and you will be disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/458 "2017-05-19T06:20:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You definitely could! I acknowledge that. But such an argument would _also have to consign Joe and Joel to going there as well_. Wait, making a show about people doing unethical things is, itself, unethical? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/459 "2017-05-19T09:09:24Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Wait, making a show about people doing unethical things is, itself, unethical? Huh? Wow, vast oversimplification much? :smack: I’m not going to go back and recap every point that has been made on this topic, but to sum up: it’s pretty clear that they admire Philip and Elizabeth and want the audience to do so as well. They often talk about their marriage in kind of reverent terms, and then–again–there was this, that I quoted just upthread: > [@](#): > > **Weisberg:** In the early days we used to worry: Will we be able to get people to sympathize with KGB officers? Then we cast Keri and Matthew and started watching, and that question evaporated, because they were so likable and sympathetic that we stopped worrying about it. Then we started writing the stories, and they do some terrible things, so we started worrying about it again. “Worrying” is mentioned three times. They very much want the audience to “sympathize” with Philip and Elizabeth and find them “likable”. But they also can’t seem to help themselves in terms of writing stories in which the couple does “some terrible things”. Which makes them go back to worrying that the audience won’t like them. From a certain point of view, you could say these showrunners are sick fucks. But then I must be a sick fuck as well, because I have no trouble rooting for Philip and Elizabeth. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/460 "2017-05-19T13:15:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > That’s what Robert Hansen and Aldrich Ames thought, but the collapse of the USSR led to huge breaches in the Soviet security archives and years later there was a reckoning, just like in the most recent episode. I doubt the show is trying to be prescient about that. I understand there is only one season left, which would give the story enough time to conclude with the dissolution of the USSR and the immediate consequences of abandoning large numbers of spies. Given P&E’s developing disillusions and dawning truths, this would be a fortuitous ending for their characters (i.e. unexpectedly become real “Americans”). Whatever reckoning happens years after that seems out of scope, IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255.md?page=24)