# The Americans; season 5 (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255 "2017-03-03T01:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/41 "2017-03-10T08:18:22Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > . > I mean, I see three possibilities: > (1) They’ve defected > (2) They’re posted to Moscow as official diplomats, the father is just really really careless about running his mouth > > One thing that makes me lean towards (2) is that you think someone would have mentioned or asked about (1) if (1) were the case. I mean, something like “gee, how did you get up the nerve to defect” or “and THAT’s why we defected”. > > The other thing is that if they are actually defectors, what’s the point of P&E gaining their trust? What are they going to do, try to convince them to re-defect? Whereas if they’re not defectors P&E might be trying to figure out whether he’s just a loudmouth vs someone who’s actually going to betray his country, sell secrets, etc. > Or we could be missing an entirely different possibility. There’s some chance that they are actually legal emigres. I assume the number of such is very very small, but would it have actually been zero in that time period? The disaffected son seems to be P&E’s true target. Maybe to spy on his father, or maybe they are cultivating him for much more long-term recruitment plans. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/42 "2017-03-10T09:43:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > On the contrary, she is a much more of a true believer than Philip. Philip does what is expedient to the job. Gregory burnt? Kill him. Afghans annoy him? Shoot em. The old lady catches them with the robot? Have her put down, vide an overdose and tell a wavering Elizabeth she has to do it. > > Elizabeth on the other hand gets attached to the people she works with. Like Gregory. Or the Korean lady. And, Hans. I don’t think it’s been a static state of mind. She was certainly cold, ruthless and without remorse but maybe, like Philip, the years have taken their toll. As recent as with the guy in the car park she didn’t blink, but the deceit at the heart of her relationship with the Korean woman did get to her. Gregory was a sexual thing way back in the day. Way to go, Greg. ---
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/43 "2017-03-10T15:32:44Z")
This morning I listened to The Americans Podcast, and they interviewed a couple of the show’s producers. From both a writing and directing standpoint they were well aware that an entire 12-minute act of digging was daring, but they felt it was necessary (I’m not saying I agree; the Mrs. and I both thought it too long, but it did serve to make the points they wanted to make). The podcast isn’t long, but they spent a fair amount of time discussing the technical aspects of shooting “the hole”; pretty interesting to me. Half was shot on-location, half in a studio. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/44 "2017-03-10T16:10:10Z")
I thought it was a great episode. I loved the opening scenes with Tuan and Pasha, which were both slightly disorienting and also perfectly in tune with the the series’ overall themes. I assumed that Pasha’s family were emigres, given the father’s outspoken criticism of the USSR. It seems unlikely to me that he would be part of an official Soviet delegation. Although the US and the USSR occasionally cooperated when it came to agriculture (e.g., Khrushchev’s love affair with corn), that seems to belong more to the Thaw era than the 1980s. Of course, I’m no expert on the USDA so I could be wrong. But if Alexei (Pasha’s dad) were in the US in an official capacity, he would probably have been strongly discouraged from having casual contact with Americans. His son would have attended the Soviet embassy school, if he had even been permitted to accompany his father at all. It’s possible that Alexei defected while in the US but the fact that his entire family is with him makes me think that is unlikely. I suppose we will learn more details of the family’s history in upcoming episodes. I liked Oleg’s storyline and hope he continues to be a prominent character. When Nina returned to the Soviet Union, it seemed that the writers didn’t really know what to do with her so ended up killing her off, which was a shame. She was a great character. I very much hope that Oleg will not meet the same fate. The food sources/agriculture plotline seems to tie in with what Philip and Elizabeth are starting to work on with Pasha’s family, so I anticipate some interesting overlaps. Someone above mentioned Martha. I would love to see her show up again. A fascinating character, played brilliantly. A minor detail but a perfect one: Paige is reading John Irving’s novel The Hotel New Hampshire. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/45 "2017-03-10T16:15:07Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > A minor detail but a perfect one: Paige is reading John Irving’s novel The Hotel New Hampshire. They weren’t exactly subtle about it. Is there some significance other that it being a very popular novel at the time and that it’s now considered a classic? I think I read it but it was decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/46 "2017-03-10T16:40:43Z")
> [@Raza](#): > > This morning I listened to The Americans Podcast, and they interviewed a couple of the show’s producers. From both a writing and directing standpoint they were well aware that an entire 12-minute act of digging was daring, but they felt it was necessary (I’m not saying I agree; the Mrs. and I both thought it too long, but it did serve to make the points they wanted to make). > > The podcast isn’t long, but they spent a fair amount of time discussing the technical aspects of shooting “the hole”; pretty interesting to me. Half was shot on-location, half in a studio. While I can understand why a casual viewer might get bored by this scene, I kind of liked it as a character building arc not only for the protagonists, but for their minions as well. One reality of spy work is that, for most of the time, it’s not glamorous work. Lots of it is boring, or petty and unromantic. And yet, these people are willing to do that work, spend literally hours digging a hole without complaint, working as a team to get the job done. That speaks volumes as to their true dedication to their cause. It’s not just about money, or sex, or blackmail. They’re doing it because they really think it needs to be done. As much as we might not understand that level of loyalty to an entity like the USSR, you have to respect that they, at least, are honestly patriots, in their own way. And, if they’ll do this boring, hard work, then what, really, would stop them from doing almost anything else in service to their cause? ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/47 "2017-03-10T16:52:34Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Also did anyone else notice that the guy fell into the grave and Elizabeth shot was Hans (the South African agent she’s been training)? I didn’t notice until the encore showing. My experience of watching that scene was roughly as follows: (Characters digging enormous hole. More digging.) O.K. (More digging.) Oh, that’s Hans. Hi, Hans. (More digging.) Oh, that’s William. Hi, William. (Gruesome postmortem removal of flesh. Hans falls, etc. Elizabeth reacts.) Oh. Bye, Hans. I actually thought the very long scene of digging worked well, culminating in the shocking (but understandable) shooting of Hans. Though I must say, the security at Fort Detrick is extremely lax. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/48 "2017-03-10T17:01:57Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > They weren’t exactly subtle about it. Is there some significance other that it being a very popular novel at the time and that it’s now considered a classic? I think I read it but it was decades ago. I think it’s a perfect detail because it was exactly the sort of book that a smart teenage girl would have read in the 1980s. It is also a novel about growing up in an unusual family, living with family secrets and eccentricities. There’s even a subplot about a group of Communists planning to blow up a theater, which I imagine Paige read with a wry smile! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/49 "2017-03-10T17:37:37Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t think it’s been a static state of mind. She was certainly cold, ruthless and without remorse but maybe, like Philip, the years have taken their toll. As recent as with the guy in the car park she didn’t blink, but the deceit at the heart of her relationship with the Korean woman did get to her. > > Gregory was a sexual thing way back in the day. Way to go, Greg. Oh, I agree, the characters have evolved since season 1, one of the best things about this show. But looking at Philip, everything for him about the mission is about the mission, its the flip side of not being as much of a true believer as Elizabeth, he is willing and able to do cold and amoral things as its just a job for him. Best illustrated by his efforts to get Martha out, Elizabeth seriously thought that he was doing it since he had fallen for her, which left him incredulous, for him its was a matter professionalism, it was his agent, so he was responsible for saving her when needed. Or look at with the kid who he is seeing, he is clearly disgusted by the whole concept; but he finds a way to do it, I doubt Elizabeth would be able to do the same. Elizabeth is a lot more attached to her agents; she has an almost maternal or big sisterly relationship with Hans. I think narratively it would have made morse sense for Philip to shoot him, it would also be a sore point between them. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/50 "2017-03-10T18:13:59Z")
One other thing: apparently Pasha’s last name is Morozov. This means he has the same name as Pavlik Morozov, a famous figure in Soviet lore. He was a young boy who informed on his father to the Soviet authorities, in some accounts for the crime of hoarding grain (others say he forged documents). After the father was arrested, other members of the family murdered Pavlik. He became an official Soviet hero and martyr, revered as an example of putting loyalty to the state above ties to one’s family. The real story was more complicated and the details remain murky to this day, but the official tale is the important one. Perhaps Pasha will become a latter-day Pavlik Morozov, betraying his father for love of his late lamented motherland. Or perhaps he will subvert our expectations and refuse the chance to become like his namesake. Yet another reason I will stay tuned to this outstanding series. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/51 "2017-03-10T19:16:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Oh, I agree, the characters have evolved since season 1, one of the best things about this show. But looking at Philip, everything for him about the mission is about the mission, its the flip side of not being as much of a true believer as Elizabeth, he is willing and able to do cold and amoral things as its just a job for him. Best illustrated by his efforts to get Martha out, Elizabeth seriously thought that he was doing it since he had fallen for her, which left him incredulous, for him its was a matter professionalism, it was his agent, so he was responsible for saving her when needed. Or look at with the kid who he is seeing, he is clearly disgusted by the whole concept; but he finds a way to do it, I doubt Elizabeth would be able to do the same. > > Elizabeth is a lot more attached to her agents; she has an almost maternal or big sisterly relationship with Hans. I think narratively it would have made morse sense for Philip to shoot him, it would also be a sore point between them. I come to the exact opposite conclusion, and I would cite the same examples. It’s like we’re watching different shows. Philip obviously cared very deeply for Martha, and played it down when talking to Elizabeth. And yes, he is disgusted by his required relationship with the young daughter of CIA guy, much more than we’ve seen Elizabeth with anything. And Hans isn’t an example. He’s not some mark being played, he’s actually one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/52 "2017-03-10T20:50:08Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > … When Nina returned to the Soviet Union, it seemed that the writers didn’t really know what to do with her so ended up killing her off, which was a shame. … I disagree with the idea that Nina was killed off because the writers didn’t know what to do with her: I believe her fate was planned from the beginning, as a way to bring home to viewers the real consequences of government-without-rule-of-law. In the Soviet system, there was no due process. If you were judged to have ceased to be useful to the State, you would get a bullet in the head. The fact that we had gotten to know Nina over a long period of time and had come to see her as a sympathetic character added to the impact her fate had on us. It’s often said that The Americans is a show about family relationships, and that’s quite true. But it’s also a show about how humans choose to organize their societies–i.e., _government_. It’s about what follows from governments ruled by laws, versus what follows from governments ruled by men. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/53 "2017-03-11T03:47:12Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I disagree with the idea that Nina was killed off because the writers didn’t know what to do with her: I believe her fate was planned from the beginning, as a way to bring home to viewers the real consequences of government-without-rule-of-law. In the Soviet system, there was no due process. If you were judged to have ceased to be useful to the State, you would get a bullet in the head… Is fairness to the USSR’s kangaroo courts Nina really was committing treason, and she freely admitted to it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/54 "2017-03-11T04:24:00Z")
She absolutely was guilty of espionage and they gave her TWO chances to start anew, but she let each go. That’s stupidity. And hardly illustrative of whether the Courts are fair or not. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/55 "2017-03-11T04:45:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Elizabeth on the other hand gets attached to the people she works with. Like Gregory. Or the Korean lady. And, Hans. > [@EllisDee](#): > > I come to the exact opposite conclusion, and I would cite the same examples. It’s like we’re watching different shows. Philip obviously cared very deeply for Martha, and played it down when talking to Elizabeth. And yes, he is disgusted by his required relationship with the young daughter of CIA guy, much more than we’ve seen Elizabeth with anything. I’m on team **Ellis Dee** on this one ;). I think Philip is more of a “softy” in the sense that he seems to suffer more mental anguish from his actions. He’s a good soldier, but kind of hates himself for it. Elizabeth is better at rationalizing what must done. Also actual agents like Hans and Gregory are on her side ideologically - of course she has empathy for them. Not that I think the dichotomy is that black and white. Philip will act with cold-blooded efficiency ( like that poor bus-boy that got in the way ) and Elizabeth clearly has doubts and struggles, as with the Koreans. But IMHO Elizabeth is definitely the mentally tougher and colder of the two. If their world blew up in their faces and either was left alone, separated from their family forever for whatever reason, I suspect a remorseful suicide would be more likely to be in Philip’s future than in Elizabeth’s. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/56 "2017-03-11T04:56:51Z")
I think we are in angry agreement here, to be honest. Elizabeth is a true believer while Philip is not. Elizabeth believes she is on the side of good, while Philip does not, at least he does not think the US is that bad. When they have to do objectively bad things for their country; Elizabeth struggles to reconcile doing those with her view of being part of “the good guys”, while Philip who is under no illusion of being part of “good guys” has no problem being cold and doing what is necessary for the mission. Incidentally, I think I read it in _Spycatcher_ that for this reason, ideological persons did not make great agents. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/57 "2017-03-13T02:09:14Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > Though I must say, the security at Fort Detrick is extremely lax. I grew up around Fort Detrick. It’s a pretty large place, a lot of open land. Part of it is on one side of a major road, the other side, which I’m guessing they were supposed to be on, was on the other. There are roads around the perimeter, that I’ve accidentally driven on. The fences were never that high, and I can imagine, if one wanted to, getting on the base wouldn’t be a huge problem. I tried to look at the photo they showed, if could have been the correct area, but if it was the area Gabrial pointed at would have been a new development. There were always rumors of things being buried in that area, stuff that was said to be contaminated but they always denied it. ---
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/58 "2017-03-13T14:45:15Z")
I have professional security experience at large military installations. As Edward The Head mentions, they can (and often do) have a large amount of vacant, if not wild, land. The only thing I saw that was a slight eyebrow-raise is the brush along the fence-line. There are regs that require the clearing of that, but it isn’t unrealistic that “the crews haven’t gotten around to it” and/or “resources protection hasn’t inspected recently”; in any event, a very minor point. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/59 "2017-03-13T15:55:11Z")
> [@Raza](#): > > The only thing I saw that was a slight eyebrow-raise is the brush along the fence-line. There are regs that require the clearing of that, but it isn’t unrealistic that “the crews haven’t gotten around to it” and/or “resources protection hasn’t inspected recently”; in any event, a very minor point. But the area they were supposed to be in, especially at that time period, is really a massive field with nothing in it. There usually is/was some trees and such right up against the fencing. You can see it on [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick,+MD/@39.4365819,-77.4560168,1333m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c9c50c8cbdaee3:0xda6247bdbd111c99!8m2!3d39.4142688!4d-77.4105409?hl=en). All of those solar power cells are where they would have been at. There’s plenty of cover, at least enough to get through the fence and hide. Now I wonder what all that power is for at Fort Detrick, especially where there aren’t a lot of buildings. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255/60 "2017-03-13T17:43:09Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > But the area they were supposed to be in, especially at that time period, is really a massive field with nothing in it. There usually is/was some trees and such right up against the fencing. You can see it on [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frederick,+MD/@39.4365819,-77.4560168,1333m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c9c50c8cbdaee3:0xda6247bdbd111c99!8m2!3d39.4142688!4d-77.4105409?hl=en). All of those solar power cells are where they would have been at. There’s plenty of cover, at least enough to get through the fence and hide. > > Now I wonder what all that power is for at Fort Detrick, especially where there aren’t a lot of buildings. :dubious: Usually government installations like that are required to be triple redundant. There are all over engineered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-americans-season-5-open-spoilers/781255.md?page=4)