# The amount of force used **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178 "2013-07-22T09:59:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/21 "2013-07-22T14:46:27Z")
I live in Britain, and if legal would certainly use a gun — although prolly not carry one — had I one to hand and were I attacked in any way. My face is more important than an aggressor’s life. Actually my _kitten’s_ life is more important than that of anyone who would hurt a kitten. Why would I blame Americans for safeguarding themselves and their loved ones ? That was any Briton’s right to carry prior to 1919; and anyway I severely dislike being hit. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/22 "2013-07-22T14:47:40Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Why is that a country like Switzerland that not only has high level of gun ownership but actually made it compulsory for their citizens to own firearms has such low percent of gun related deaths. My opinion? Because compulsory gun ownership implies a realistic program of gun safety education, rather than the current American system of gun-veneration and gun-demonization. Also, the Swiss firearms, if I recall correctly, are rifles and similar arms for defense against invading forces, not the handguns used by American criminals and vigilantes. ETA: I invite correction of my impressions of Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/23 "2013-07-22T15:28:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you get to ask questions but not answer them? I ask the questions and you lot are meant to answer 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/24 "2013-07-22T15:30:34Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > No, you can’t go around provoking people. Yes, you _can._ People start fights, kill the person they provoked and claim immunity under “stand your ground” laws and get away with their killing. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Why is that a country like Switzerland that not only has high level of gun ownership but actually made it compulsory for their citizens to own firearms has such low percent of gun related deaths. The guns don’t have ammunition as I recall. That just makes them awkward clubs. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/25 "2013-07-22T15:32:22Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > I ask the questions and you lot are meant to answer 'em. Doesn’t make for much of a debate though, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/26 "2013-07-22T15:41:45Z")
If I was the only other person in the debate then no it wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/27 "2013-07-22T16:25:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, you _can._ People start fights, kill the person they provoked and claim immunity under “stand your ground” laws and get away with their killing. > > The guns don’t have ammunition as I recall. That just makes them awkward clubs. [Here is the law in Florida](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html) > [@](#): > > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: Until 1997 all militia members were issued 50 rounds by the government. Currently only certain people are issued ammunition but the ammunition is available for anyone to buy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/28 "2013-07-22T16:28:27Z")
You probably should not fail to answer questions specifically directed at you, in response to something you stated, or appear to be assuming,though. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/29 "2013-07-22T16:37:19Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You probably should not fail to answer questions specifically directed at you, in response to something you stated, or appear to be assuming,though. This is true. Often we ask for clarification, as otherwise we have the regrettable habit of chasing our own bandwagons. We may believe we are answering your questions but be haring off in a different direction. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/30 "2013-07-22T16:40:54Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > UK law doesn’t expect people to simply stand there and take a beating. It’s just that guns are virtually unheard of here. But if you are less skilled at fighting than the person who attacks you then you have to take a beating until help arrives. If you have a gun you can defend yourself regardless of size, sex, health or fighting ability. That may be why the rate of assaults are 133% more in the UK than in the US and why the rate of rape victimization is 125% more than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sanity\_Challenged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Sanity\_Challenged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanity_Challenged)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/31 "2013-07-22T17:06:31Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Here in the UK if someone attacked another person the person being attacked would defend themselves,but why do Americans find it necessary to use firearms to defend themselves when being attacked by an unarmed individual. We don’t. We only find it necessary to use firearms to defend ourselves when there is a disparity of force between the attacker and the defender, and the defender has a reasonable belief that they are in danger of grave bodily harm or death. You may be confused by certain relatively rare highly publicized cases, which only become newsworthy because one or more of these key aspects are in doubt. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/32 "2013-07-22T17:08:38Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Here in the UK if someone attacked another person the person being attacked would defend themselves,but why do Americans find it necessary to use firearms to defend themselves when being attacked by an unarmed individual. Mostly for keeping the English out of our face.😃 A more serious answer is that unlike TV, an “attack” isn’t someone “socks you in the kisser” for hitting on his girlfriend in a pub, you tussle about for awhile and then go grab a beer (or whatever). We Americans generally feel that people don’t have to submit themselves to a severe beating from a cracked up homeless lunatic or some roid-raging wanabee MMA fighter whose bent out of shape because he mistakes you for some dude who unknowingly cut him off last week. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Why is that a country like Switzerland that not only has high level of gun ownership but actually made it compulsory for their citizens to own firearms has such low percent of gun related deaths. Because different countries have different cultures, demographics and other factors? Switzerland is a an affluent country with a relatively homogenous population about the size of New York City. It is likely to have a very different attitude and mentality on guns and gun controls than a country of 300 million people where guns played a large cultural role in the creation of that country and is still dealing with the ramifications of a time when roughly ten percent of the population were considered property because of their color. ---
**Author:** ![Sanity\_Challenged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Sanity\_Challenged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanity_Challenged)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/33 "2013-07-22T17:12:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, you _can._ People start fights, kill the person they provoked and claim immunity under “stand your ground” laws and get away with their killing. People break into homes, rape and murder the homeowner, steal their stuff, and get away with it because they don’t leave behind enough evidence to show that they did it. So by your reasoning, home invasion, rape, murder, and theft are all officially allowed, thanks to so-called “Proof beyond a reasonable doubt” laws. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/34 "2013-07-22T17:15:12Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Why is that a country like Switzerland that not only has high level of gun ownership but actually made it compulsory for their citizens to own firearms has such low percent of gun related deaths. Because there are only around 8 million people living in Switzerland, and most of them are, you know, Swiss (i.e. they are a fairly homogeneous population). We have CITIES that are nearly that large in the US, and we don’t have a very homogeneous population, being comprised of not only Swiss (and the occasional Brit) but people from just about every country, ‘race’, religion and ethnic group on the planet. We also make crappy chocolate, which might have something to do with it. Haven’t worked that part out yet… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/35 "2013-07-22T17:19:58Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Here in the UK if someone attacked another person the person being attacked would defend themselves,but why do Americans find it necessary to use firearms to defend themselves when being attacked by an unarmed individual. To answer the OP, most Americans don’t. You are equating a few sensationalist and sensationalized stories in the news with the actions of literally hundreds of millions of people. There are more guns in the US than there are people. There are hundreds of millions of Americans running about as well. Yet, there are a relative handful of such sensational stories. That said, I’m not seeing why someone with a gun shouldn’t defend themselves from someone who is unarmed to be honest. Why should I get the crap beat out of me simply because the other guy is unarmed?? What’s the logic there? If someone tries to beat me up and I have martial arts training, should I refrain from using it if the other guy doesn’t know martial arts or isn’t as good as me? Should I let him kick my ass because of this? ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/36 "2013-07-22T17:21:43Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Here in the UK if someone attacked another person the person being attacked would defend themselves,but why do Americans find it necessary to use firearms to defend themselves when being attacked by an unarmed individual. So you can’t be killed in a fist fight? I think some people would disagree. [Soccer referee killed by unarmed teen.](http://www.cbssports.com/general/blog/eye-on-sports/22218550/teen-soccer-player-accused-of-punching-ref-charged-with-homicide) [Police officer beaten to death by unarmed teen.](http://www.elpasotimes.com/tablehome/ci_21759997/hundreds-mourn-fallen-el-paso-officer-jonathan-molina?IADID=Search-www.elpasotimes.com-www.elpasotimes.com) [Man found not guilty after punching a man in a bar fight, killing him.](http://www.appeal-democrat.com/articles/wike-126491-pacini-county.html) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/37 "2013-07-22T17:44:49Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > While it’s not always necessary, it’s important to keep in mind that rarely are people equally matched in a fight. If you were attacked, let’s say hypothetically, by having your nose broken and your head repeatedly slammed into a concrete curb by someone younger, faster, and taller than you who is on top of you, it is unreasonable to expect you to either take the beating when you don’t know when it will stop and every slam is a potential death sentence, or somehow get the upper hand when you’re already at such a disadvantage. In such a circumstance it would not be unreasonable, and indeed may be necessary, to use a weapon to equalize the fight. > [@newcomer](#): > > So, if you carry a concealed weapon you can go around and provoke people for any reason knowing full well that ultimately you have advantage of premeditation; i.e. if the other guy is actually physically capable, you can just shoot him. And walk free if he’s black. > > That’s US, man … the land of not so free and not so brave. > [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > I think we’re both aware that that’s a bit more than what I said. Not really. Please take any Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman discussions to another thread; this looks like a more general discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/38 "2013-07-22T18:27:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > To answer the OP, most Americans don’t. You are equating a few sensationalist and sensationalized stories in the news with the actions of literally hundreds of millions of people. There are more guns in the US than there are people. There are hundreds of millions of Americans running about as well. Yet, there are a relative handful of such sensational stories. > > That said, I’m not seeing why someone with a gun shouldn’t defend themselves from someone who is unarmed to be honest. Why should I get the crap beat out of me simply because the other guy is unarmed?? What’s the logic there? If someone tries to beat me up and I have martial arts training, should I refrain from using it if the other guy doesn’t know martial arts or isn’t as good as me? Should I let him kick my ass because of this? Because when guns are involved people have a tendency to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/39 "2013-07-22T18:56:08Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Why is that a country like Switzerland that not only has high level of gun ownership but actually made it compulsory for their citizens to own firearms has such low percent of gun related deaths. Culture. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178/40 "2013-07-22T18:59:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Yes, you _can._ People start fights, kill the person they provoked and claim immunity under “stand your ground” laws and get away with their killing. > > > > The guns don’t have ammunition as I recall. That just makes them awkward clubs. > > [Here is the law in Florida](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > > > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: Hey, let’s take a look at the part you left off, the part that comes after the word “unless”: > [@](#): > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, **unless** : > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. So **Der Trihs** is right, you can provoke a fight and then kill the other guy and claim SYG or Castle laws and never be punished in any way. In fact, it’s happened already; here are two notable cases from the past few years: [Greyston Garcia chased a man down the street and then stabbed him to death](http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/23/florida-court-dismisses-stabbing-case-under-the-stand-your-ground-law/). [Joe Horn killed two men (robbers) who had just exited his neighbors house, shooting one of them in the back](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-amount-of-force-used/664178.md?page=3)