The amount of force used

[kayaker]

@Pjen

Culture.

Southern, on the skids.

[XT]

@Longshanks

Because when guns are involved people have a tendency to be killed.

Yes…and?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@madmonk28

America is a deeply fearful place, this seems to have become more pronounced in the past few years.

If you believe that then you haven’t been paying much attention. I would honestly say people are vastly less afraid of crime than they used to be, particularly in the 1980s. You’ll notice that in neither of the last two Presidential elections was there much debate over crime whereas in the Presidential elections of the 80s and 1992, crime was a huge deal politically.

[puddleglum]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Hey, let’s take a look at the part you left off, the part that comes after the word “unless”:
So Der Trihs is right, you can provoke a fight and then kill the other guy and claim SYG or Castle laws and never be punished in any way. In fact, it’s happened already; here are two notable cases from the past few years:

Greyston Garcia chased a man down the street and then stabbed him to death.

Joe Horn killed two men (robbers) who had just exited his neighbors house, shooting one of them in the back.

Neither of your cases involve anyone provoking a fight. They involve citizens confronting people who are committing crimes and then shooting the criminals when they attack the person.
The two cases after the unless involve someone provoking a fight and then either exhausting every means of escape and having to defend themselves, or stopping and clearly expressing a desire to stop the fight and then being attacked and being unable to escape. Neither of these scenarios has happened and while it is theoretically possible for it to happen, in reality you can not just provoke people into fighting and kill them.

[Der_Trihs]

@Sanity_Challenged

People break into homes, rape and murder the homeowner, steal their stuff, and get away with it because they don’t leave behind enough evidence to show that they did it. So by your reasoning, home invasion, rape, murder, and theft are all officially allowed, thanks to so-called “Proof beyond a reasonable doubt” laws.

That’s a silly analogy. That’s not at all the same as knowing exactly what happened and letting the killers off.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Hey, let’s take a look at the part you left off, the part that comes after the word “unless”:
So Der Trihs is right, you can provoke a fight and then kill the other guy and claim SYG or Castle laws and never be punished in any way. In fact, it’s happened already; here are two notable cases from the past few years:

Greyston Garcia chased a man down the street and then stabbed him to death.

Joe Horn killed two men (robbers) who had just exited his neighbors house, shooting one of them in the back.

Did you accidentally link to the wrong cases?

They’re both disgusting perversions of justice which bring into question SYG laws, but neither involves someone “provoking” a fight.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Snowboarder_Bo

So Der Trihs is right, you can provoke a fight and then kill the other guy and claim SYG or Castle laws and never be punished in any way. In fact, it’s happened already; here are two notable cases from the past few years:

Greyston Garcia chased a man down the street and then stabbed him to death.

Joe Horn killed two men (robbers) who had just exited his neighbors house, shooting one of them in the back.

Are you operating under a different definition of the word “provoke” than the rest of us?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@kayaker

Don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. If I were attacked without provocation, assuming the attacker to be ethically sane could be a mistake.

What if youw ere attacked with provocation? Can you assume your attacker to ethically sane then and just take your beating like a man?

@Patch

So you can’t be killed in a fist fight? I think some people would disagree.

Soccer referee killed by unarmed teen.
Police officer beaten to death by unarmed teen.

Man found not guilty after punching a man in a bar fight, killing him.

More people get punched to death than get killed by any form of rifle (assault weapon or not).

@Der_Trihs

That’s a silly analogy. That’s not at all the same as knowing exactly what happened and letting the killers off.

Yes, we let the killer off if they acted in self defense. What would be your solution? Don’t let people defend themselves?

We’re not supposed to talk about the TM?GZ case so I won’t harp on the fact that noone “KNOWS” anything but we frequently don’t “KNOW” what happened

[kayaker]

@Damuri_Ajashi

What if you were attacked with provocation? Can you assume your attacker to ethically sane then and just take your beating like a man?

That’s difficult to address. I would not provoke someone to attack me.

[UltraVires]

@msmith537

A more serious answer is that unlike TV, an “attack” isn’t someone “socks you in the kisser” for hitting on his girlfriend in a pub, you tussle about for awhile and then go grab a beer (or whatever). We Americans generally feel that people don’t have to submit themselves to a severe beating from a cracked up homeless lunatic or some roid-raging wanabee MMA fighter whose bent out of shape because he mistakes you for some dude who unknowingly cut him off last week.

This. There used to be a time in this country (and it did exist) where two men would settle their differences with an old fashioned fist fight. There were implicit rules: no kicking in the balls, no eye gouging, no hitting a man while down, basically don’t fucking kill the other guy. After the exchange of a few punches, both men realized that this shit hurt and that we had better stop, shake hands, and buy each other a beer.

Today those rules are gone. A regular fist fight means all of the above and a good curb stomp to put the man in the coma for life. So, now, it’s not unrealistic to believe that today a fist fight will severely impair if not kill you. Pulling out a gun while getting your head bashed is reasonable under today’s circumstances.

Also, to other posts. If you are the initial aggressor, then SYG does not apply to you. You can still use self-defense, but have the olde common law duty to retreat. (Note: Walking up to someone and asking a question is not aggression.)

[handsomeharry]

@Longshanks

Here in the UK if someone attacked another person the person being attacked would defend themselves,but why do Americans find it necessary to use firearms to defend themselves when being attacked by an unarmed individual.

Can you give us an example?

[Mcnoogle]

Hmmmm,

All very interesting…
and both sides…UK, and US, have a good point…I prefer to side with the US point of view though…

Im from and still in South Africa…where we have the most rediculous gun laws…

I own a gun, (a few actually) but I think were specifically talking about ‘carry gun’ or ‘conceals’ as in hand guns that one is likely to carry on your body.

If the need arises…I WILL use it to take a life, anyone who threatens my wife, etc etc…I will not hesitate to shoot.

That said, I must point out, 1st of all, getting a firearm in South Africa, is a major painstaking process…(took me more than 2 years)…although, they’ve improved turnaround times on applications…
there are not 1, but 3 sets of applications you have to go through (actually 4) as follows:

1. 1st you need to get a proficiency certificate…
   This is where you have to receive practical and theoretical training on the firearm type you are wanting (I did mine for 4 types - Handgun/shotgun/rifle/semi-auto carbine)…you do a practical exam, where you have to show that you know how to safely handle, ‘make safe’, and stip a firearm, and fire 10 rounds into an A4 size page at 10 meters. Then you also have to do 2 written exams.
   at the same time, you also have to do 2 written exams on South African gun law.
   Thats step 1.
   Step 2) Competency…you have to do a competency application, whereby, along with your application, you have to submit your proficiency certificates, motivations etc, at this stage, they do fingerprinting (2 full sets of each hand, including palm,) and a 3rd total hand set, they do background checks, on your personality type (though spouse interviews, interviews with friends or families etc, and criminal background checks too)…this takes long.
   Step 3) You have to buy & install a safe, and apply for ‘safe inspection’…(you have to have a secure safe on your premises in order to be allowed to own firearms.
   Step 4) Before you apply for the Licence for your firearm…you have to buy it (which is a risk, because at this point, you can still be denied the licence, then youre stuck with a firearm that by law you may not have. The reason you have to purchase it 1st, is because, you need to put the firearm serial number on your application, as its not just you being licenced, its your firearm being licenced to you.
   I know this is long winded, and a bit off point, but my point is just this…
   I KNOW the firearm Law in South Africa, I also fully understand what Im doing when I wield my .45…its a safe tool, but deadly when in my hands…
   The Law states, that, even if someone invades my house, I need to get away, before using deadly force. Only, if I’m trapped, and I actually fear my life is in danger, or that of someone else…may I use it…
   So, if 4 guys break into my house at 3am, and I can get my wife and I out of our house without any confrontation, I need to do that…(who knows if I actually will, if it comes to that)…yet, I know also, that if I have no other option, but to use deadly force, then I’m on for a world of trouble…serious trouble…even if the law is technically on my side. Also, merely pointing a firearm…real or fake, at someone…is a crime in South Africa…so, really, its a last resort. I understand US is better in that way…We as defenders would have more rights…than the criminals do…not so in South Africa.
   As such, although I do have a right (and more importantly the legal means) to protect my life (and the life of those around me -even perfect strangers)…one has to be very sure that the circumstances are right (eg. If Im walking alone at night, even if Im packing, and I notice two ‘elements’ hanging around up ahead…I would rather change course than end up in a possible situation where I may have to draw my firearm).
   Discretion is key…How do I know, that if I draw, maybe they will also both draw, and shoot without warning…I have no idea, so I’d rather avoid it.
   That said, even in south Africa, statistics have proven that more firearm ownership equates to less crime. That is a fact.