# The Ancient Origin and Myths of Israel and Judaism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 14, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235 "2019-09-14T21:49:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/1 "2019-09-14T21:49:54Z")
Mysteries of ancient human prehistory intrigue me. Of the “great religions” only Hinduism predates Judaism’s King Josiah, and, while the details are hugely mysterious and very controversial and surely fascinating, the Hindu religion’s origin can be safely pinned back to the 4th century BC pastoralists of the East European steppes. The ancient Irish religion, BTW, also traces back to the same place and time — and there are huge affinities between the religions of the Druids and of the Brahmin.
PLEASE NOTE that the origins of the Israelites more than 2000 years ago have nothing whatsoever to do with today’s Jewish people; the whole topic is merely one of pure curiosity.
Begin the story of Judaism with 3 or 4 Empires — Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt and the Hittites. In the midst of these empires, stretching from the Eastern Delta of the Nile to the valley of the Euphrates River, were smaller towns and tribes, often vassal to one of the empires: sedentary people near the Sea and nomadic shepherds inland. Egypt was the last of the empires to get war chariots — they were introduced by the conquering Hyksos. The Israelites were much later still, first using chariots, it’s written, in the time of King David. (And even he “houghed all the [enemy’s] chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.”)
I got interested in this ancient history when I realized that the words Yahweh, Hebrew/'Apiru and Israel all appear in Egyptian inscriptions, centuries _before_ the time of the alleged King David.
It’s widely assumed that the worship of Yahweh began as a monolatry. There were some other monolatrous religions in that region. Some claim that the other religions tended to worship a sun god, while Yahweh worship began as moon god worship. I’ll let the Board’s experts straighten this out.
So. What time-frame do we speak of when we write “Ancient Origin of Jewish Religion” (which I will extrapolate to reference the Tribe of Israel more generally) ?
Wiki’s article with a similar title shows only:
> [@](#):
>
> The origins of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age amidst polytheistic ancient Semitic religions, specifically Canaanite religion, co-existing with a syncretization with elements of Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. During the Iron Age I, the Israelite religion became distinct from other Canaanite religions due to the unique monolatristic (proto-monotheistic) worship of Yahweh.
There isn’t much detail here; the rest of the article reviews only Iron Age II and later. Similarly, [patheos.com](http://patheos.com) _begins_ its “History” or “Origin” of Judaism in 1st or 2nd century _AD_! Josiah isn’t mentioned in these accounts, let alone David or Solomon. But I’ll ask, for the purpose of this thread, that “Ancient” predates the alleged reigns of David and Solomon.
Arguments for such an early origin of proto-Judaism include the Beta Israel and especially [Qemant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qemant_people) people of Ethiopia. The former apparently separated from Judaea before the Captivity in Babylon, and the Qemant perhaps much earlier still. Note that King Tut’s tomb contained an Ark rather similar to the Ark specified in the Bible.
The historical problem can be phrased most simply with “Who was Pharaoh at Moses’ birth, and which Pharaoh later chased the fleeing Israelites eastward?” (Speculations for the date have a range of 300+ years IIUC.) I’ll offer my own comments, if any, later but for now, let’s note:
(1) The story of Moses as written in the Pentateuch is heavily distorted, if based on any true story at all.
(2) In particular, Pharaoh was following the Hebrew (Habiru/'Apiru) folk _to ensure they fled far away_, **not to bring them back for enslavement**.
(3) There is evidence that many of the locations described in Exodus/Numbers were near Petra in the Land of Edom, supposedly the tribe of Jacob/Israel’s brother Esau.
As for (2), consider how _you_ would write an origin myth for _your_ new religion. Assuming you describe an exodus from Egypt, would you want your heroes to be raiders being driven away? Or to flee enslavement for a Promised Land? IIRC there are ancient Egyptian inscription(s) describing the driving away of Shasu or Habiru people, who may have been mercenary soldiers turned rogue. The Habiru might have been a subset of the Shasu who in turn were nomadic shepherds. When did the Shasu conquer the Edomites, if at all? Some such questions are answered [in the book _Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in ancient times_](https://archive.org/details/egyptcanaanisrae00redf/). This is available on the Internet as a free library book. I hope interested Dopers will check out the book and peruse it to help with the mysteries. I’m browsing it a little now — If mine is the only copy, just PM me and I’ll return the book forthwith.
That the ancient Israelites were shepherds rather than farmers is suggested by Genesis Chapter 4:
> [@](#):
>
> And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell… and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Was this myth more likely written by a farmer or by a shepherd?
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/2 "2019-09-14T22:58:11Z")
Your initial post is kind of all over the place, so it’s kind of hard to follow it up, but my understanding is that Moses is no longer considered a historical figure by the majority of ancient historians who specialize in the levant or near east and the Exodus, if it happened at all in any form, was nothing like the mass migration of people (for whatever reason) of even as brief as span as decades as portrayed in the Bible.
To the extent certain passages seem to favor a certain way of life over another, that could also point to different motives in the sources. Keep in mind, there were two separate kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judea (including modern Jerusalem) in the south, with certain passages in Genesis and Exodus seeming to favor one kingdom over the other (like which son get the inheritance vs which son gets the curse, or who sells who into slavery and who feels just awful about the whole darn thing). Whether there ever was a single, unified Kingdom of Israel encompassing both north and south under a single monarch (like David) is, I believe, a subject of debate.
But of course I am not a biblical scholar, archeologist, historian, or anything like that.
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [December 29, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/3 "2019-12-29T20:43:38Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> Of the “great religions” only Hinduism predates Judaism’s King Josiah, and, while the details are hugely mysterious and very controversial and surely fascinating, the Hindu religion’s origin can be safely pinned back to the 4th century BC pastoralists of the East European steppes.
:dubious:
Want to try that again?
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/4 "2019-12-30T04:56:09Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> the Hindu religion’s origin can be safely pinned back to the 4th century BC pastoralists of the East European steppes.
:dubious: :dubious:
Seconded.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/5 "2019-12-30T05:03:47Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The ancient Irish religion, BTW, also traces back to the same place and time — and there are huge affinities between the religions of the Druids and of the Brahmin.
:rolleyes:
Like to post a cite for that?
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/6 "2019-12-30T05:44:56Z")
The thread title is Judaism, but let’s talk of other ancient religions instead!
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> > [@septimus](#):
> >
> > The ancient Irish religion, BTW, also traces back to the same place and time — and there are huge affinities between the religions of the Druids and of the Brahmin.
>
> :rolleyes:
>
> Like to post a cite for that?
One reason that I post at SDMB is: I avoid the need for bookmarks! I just Search for my old posts:
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The most ancient Indo-European cultures divide society into three castes. Their rituals involved the sacrifice of three animals: typically a ram for the priestly caste (Brahmin, Druids, etc.), a stallion or bull (or rarely a human) for the warrior caste, and a he-goat (or boar) for the third caste.
> [@What do we know about pre-Christian religious rites?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-know-about-pre-christian-religious-rites/735680/12):
>
> There were very strong similarities between the early religious rituals of the Hindu Brahmin and the Old Irish Druids. This [article is about new Irish Kings bathing with a sacrificed horse](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:G8ZK_PicYkwJ:openjournals.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/article/download/660/640+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk) and compares it with [the traditional Vedic Hindu royal inauguration.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha) And there are other similarities between ancient Indic and Irish religions; as well as relationships to Greek, Roman and Norse religions.
>
> This connection seems odd — Ireland is a long distance from India; the Irish and Indic languages separated about 5500 years ago; the two populations have different Y-chromosome haplogroups. I think these religious parallels may suggest the great dominance of the early Indo-European culture.
> [@What do we know about pre-Christian religious rites?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-we-know-about-pre-christian-religious-rites/735680/16):
>
> … strong parallels among Indo-European religions.
>
> Of course the details vary. In the ancient Irish royal anointment, [the King fornicates with a sacrificial white mare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_sacrifice). In the ancient Hindu ritual it is the Queen who fornicates with a white stallion.
>
> The royal Celtic name Epomeduos (\< ek’wo-medhu = “horse + mead”) reflects the ceremony, mead being the fermented honey imbibed during the ritual. Was it coincidental parallel development that the Vedic ritual is called _Ashvamedha_ (अश्वमेध), cognate with the Irish name (although AFAIK no fermented honey is involved in the Vedic ritual)?
>
> There are other specific parallels between the functions and rituals of Druids and ancient Brahmins, down to the ceremonial clothing color (white — also in each society the warrior caste wore red).
The cognacy of _Epomeduos_ and _Ashvamedha_ (अश्वमेध) seems especially convincing. Mallory’s _In Search of the Indo-Europeans_ discusses other Druidism-Hinduism similarities.
ETA: Re-reading the above, I see another similarity I overlooked was Druid and Brahmin priests both chanting while circling a fire (or some such?. I won’t try to find a cite for that in the 5-minute Edit window.
Emphasis on father-son inheritance of clan or caste was also strong both in Ireland and India.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/7 "2019-12-30T07:25:46Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The thread title is Judaism, but let’s talk of other ancient religions instead!
You are the one who started talking about other religions.
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The most ancient Indo-European cultures divide society into three castes.
No, [four castes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_%28Hinduism%29). This is pretty basic, and even the most ancient Hindu and Vedic writings refer to four castes.
The Celtic languages belong to the Indo-European language group (as do dozens of other European, Slavic, and Indo-Iranian languages), so it’s not surprising that there are cognates. Horse sacrifices are also common in Indo-European religions.
As for circling fires, many Native-American and Australian tribes also circle fires in their ceremonies - does that mean they also have Indo-European origins?
Patrimomy exists in most world cultures.
I think these parallels are far-fetched, but in so far as they have any basis, they apply to a large number of different cultures.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/8 "2019-12-30T08:25:34Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> No, [four castes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_%28Hinduism%29). This is pretty basic, and even the most ancient Hindu and Vedic writings refer to four castes.
Are you really quibbling about the number of castes? Most non-IE caste systems have TWO castes. The separation of Priests “above” Warriors is unique to IE, IIUC. _And when a conquest requires incorporating a whole new group_ (who may have already had their own caste system) _it will often be very convenient to add new caste(s)._
Moreover (though barely necessary for my argument), _ **your own Wikipedia refutes your insistence on “most ancient”** _:
> [@](#):
>
> **The term Shudra appears only once in the Rigveda**.[10][11] This mention is found in a verse in the Purusha Sukta which is one of its 1,028 hymns.[12][13]
>
> While the Rigveda was most likely compiled between c. 1500 and 1200 BCE,[14][15] John Muir in 1868 suggested that **the verse that mentions the four varnas has “every character of modernness both in its diction and ideas”**.[16] The Purusha Sukta verse is now generally considered to have been inserted at a later date into the Vedic text, possibly as a charter myth.
> [@](#):
>
> The Celtic languages belong to the Indo-European language group (as do dozens of other European, Slavic, and Indo-Iranian languages), so it’s not surprising that there are cognates. Horse sacrifices are also common in Indo-European religions.
Uh … yeah. That was rather the point. In your judgement then, the _compound_ words Epomeduos and Ashvamedha evolved _independently_, _thousands of years_ after Celtic and Indo-Aryan’s ancestors split?
> [@](#):
>
> As for circling fires, many Native-American and Australian tribes also circle fires in their ceremonies - does that mean they also have Indo-European origins?
😕 It’s _similarity of details_ that are significant — Did you see the “No time to Google in the Edit window”? And as YOU should know (:)) as well as anyone I’m not masochistic enough to hunt down controversial cites single-handedly!
> [@](#):
>
> Patrimomy exists in most world cultures.
Cite? Especially for the _emphatic_ patrimonial inheritance seen in Hindu, Celtic (and other I-E) cultures?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/9 "2019-12-30T08:34:37Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> the Hindu religion’s origin can be safely pinned back to the 4th century BC pastoralists of the East European steppes.
:dubious: :dubious: :dubious:
I think you must have meant “4th _millennium_ BC”.
> [@septimus](#):
>
> Are you really quibbling about the number of castes?
Nitpick: “Caste” is an ambiguous term that usually refers to the _jati_ or more restricted endogamous hereditary occupational group. The word for one of the four major divisions of Vedic Indian society is _varna_.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/10 "2019-12-30T10:09:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> :dubious: :dubious: :dubious:
>
> I think you must have meant “4th _millennium_ BC”.
:smack: :smack: OF COURSE that was what I meant. That’s probably why **Johanna** was quizzical. Sorry. I have been doing “billion”/“million” substitutions lately, and so on. Creeping senility. ☹
In future, please respond to what I _meant to write_, and _not_ to where the fingers aimlessly wandered :p.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/11 "2019-12-30T11:59:34Z")
The ancient origins of Indo-European religions seems like an interesting topic to me. The ancient origins of Judaism seems like an interesting topic to me. (Although neither Wikipedia nor the SDMB seem interested in looking backward even as far as King Josiah when discussing Judaism’s origin. Is Josiah also considered fictional? :rolleyes: )
I participate in, or even start, threads which touch on such interesting topics. One thing I am NOT interested in is discussing my spelling errors and misplaced commas.
I heartily apologize for writing “century” when “millennium” was intended. I’ve also substituted “million” for “billion” in more than one post. I’m really not innumerate. I should proofread more carefully. When **Johanna** called my attention to the error, I just skimmed on … oblivious to her point. My brain skims too fast … and I especially ignore my own words: I already “know” (or rather, think I know) what they say! 😛
Discounting those who didn’t even know that the common ancestor of Indo-Aryan and Celtic was in the 4th millennium BC, there are two kinds of people:
- Those who knew I made a “typographical” error (if such brain-farts can be called “typos”), and
- Those who thought I was really so ignorant as to think “century” was correct.
I have no interest in discussions with the second group. Fortunately, I’m certain all Dopers are in the first group. I apologize again. I doubly apologize to **Johanna** who gently pointed out the error but, skimming as I was, I missed her point. 😛_ **Sorry.** _ Thanks to **Kimstu** for finally waking me up to it.
And thanks to **GreenWyvern** , the only one who has made substantial contribution here. What do you think about the alleged recency of the term “Shudra”? (I may confuse billion and million, but I do still remember that Four take-away One is THREE!) And, do you maintain that religious rituals developed independently and the cognate compound words Epomeduos and Ashvamedha evolved independently in coincidence?
Any other spelling errors or misplaced commas we need to discuss? 🙂
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/12 "2019-12-30T13:20:26Z")
For those talking issue with the OP’s first paragraph, Wikipedia has a summary: [Proto-Indo-European mythology - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology)
It’s seems he’d rather discuss that topic elsewhere, if people are interested.
As for the topic on hand, this is a good start: [Ancient Semitic religion - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion)
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/13 "2019-12-30T13:36:06Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> And, do you maintain that religious rituals developed independently and the cognate compound words Epomeduos and Ashvamedha evolved independently in coincidence?
I never said or implied that, so I’m not sure where you get that from.
On the contrary, I pointed out that both languages have Indo-European roots, and that some ritual practices are found across many Indo-European cultures.
> [@septimus](#):
>
> the Hindu religion’s origin can be safely pinned back to the 4th [DEL]century[/DEL] millenium BC pastoralists of the East European steppes. The ancient Irish religion, BTW, also traces back to the same place and time — and there are huge affinities between the religions of the Druids and of the Brahmin.
No, The Hindu religion [did not originate on the steppes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Origins), and there’s no reason to believe it originated with pastoralists.
We know very little about the religion of the Druids, and absolutely nothing before the Greeks and Romans wrote about them. What little we know doesn’t show ‘huge affinities’ with the religions of India aside from a common belief in reincarnation.
I really don’t know what any of this has to do with the origin and myths of Israel and Judaism.
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/14 "2019-12-30T15:02:31Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> We know very little about the religion of the Druids,
No one knows who they were, or what they were doing, but their legacy remains . . .
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/15 "2019-12-30T15:11:49Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> No one knows who they were, or what they were doing, but their legacy remains . . .
:D
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 31, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/16 "2019-12-31T05:41:56Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The thread title is Judaism, but let’s talk of other ancient religions instead!
This was intended as sarcastic. I thought if someone wanted to discuss Hinduism/Druidism they should have the grace to start another thread.
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> You are the one who started talking about other religions.
😕😕😕 I almost snarked at this confused conception, but edited it out on Preview.
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> I really don’t know what any of this has to do with the origin and myths of Israel and Judaism.
“Really”?? 😛
Omygosh! \*\*\* Just go away.\*\*\* (How many times am I supposed to write “Nothing nothing nothing” on the blackboard, dear guru?)
I wanted to discuss the earliest known historical basis for Jewish people or religion. I (stupidly) mentioned other religions for which the prehistoric basis can be traced much farther back than Judaism.
**GreenWyvern** hijacked the thread to discuss links between Hinduism and Druidism. Fine. That’s an interesting topic in its own right. (And nobody wanted to discuss Judaism here anyway.)
The cognacy of Epomeduos and Ashvamedha and the associated religious rituals seem like a very strong hint, especially since horses were introduced to both Ireland and India by the Indo-Europeans.
_ **If** _ someone wrote “The cognacy of Epomeduos and Ashvamedha is intriguing but not convincing. Find another 2 or 3 such coincidences and we’ll take the thesis seriously,” _ **Then** _ I might be motivated to show more examples."
_But nobody did, so I won’t._ Instead we’re left with SDMB wisdom something like: “Horse sacrifices are common. There’s probably a South American tribe that bathes its queens in the broth from a white stallion too.” !!
😃 Over and out.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 31, 2019, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/17 "2019-12-31T06:03:52Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> **GreenWyvern** hijacked the thread to discuss links between Hinduism and Druidism. Fine. That’s an interesting topic in its own right.
Just to be clear: Nobody is claiming that Hinduism and Druidism are the same religion, recently split, like the Southern Baptists and Black Baptists split apart 180 years ago.
No. I find it intriguing to trace religions, and other cultural modes, to their most ancient origins. The Hindu religion doubtless also borrowed from Harrapan religion; discussion of that would NOT be out of place (in a thread with a different title! 😃 ) Heck! Trace religions all the way back to [Laurasian mythology](http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Myth-Summary.htm) — That might be interesting!
Instead, some of you seem fixated on my misprint of “4th century” instead of “4th millennium” and are trying to disabuse me of basic ignorances. \*\*\*Just Go Away!
* * *
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [December 31, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/18 "2019-12-31T07:59:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The royal Celtic name Epomeduos (\< ek’wo-medhu = “horse + mead”) reflects the ceremony, mead being the fermented honey imbibed during the ritual. Was it coincidental parallel development that the Vedic ritual is called Ashvamedha (अश्वमेध), cognate with the Irish name (although AFAIK no fermented honey is involved in the Vedic ritual)?
> [@septimus](#):
>
> The cognacy of _Epomeduos_ and _Ashvamedha_ (अश्वमेध) seems especially convincing.
Darn right there’s no fermented honey in _medha_. The Sanskrit cognate of mead is _[madhu](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%81#Sanskrit)_. But [_medha_](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A7#Sanskrit) is a completely different word. Oo, and it was so close!!! _Tantalizingly_ close. Sorry!
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [December 31, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/19 "2019-12-31T10:48:14Z")
For some reason, this thread makes me think of a person repeatedly hitting himself over the head while shouting that it hurts. :D
Anyway…
🚪🏃♂️
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 31, 2019, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancient-origin-and-myths-of-israel-and-judaism/840235/20 "2019-12-31T11:47:15Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> But [_medha_](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A7#Sanskrit) is a completely different word. Oo, and it was so close!!! _Tantalizingly_ close. Sorry!
Mallory cites Jaan Puhvel, UCLA Emeritus Professor of Classics and Indo-European Studies, for _asvamedha_ \< \*_ekwo-meydho_ [PIE] ‘horse-drunk’
and this etymology is ubiquitous via Google. But whatever the relationship between fermented honey and ritual dunkenness, what do you think about the insistence on a _white_ mare in one ceremony and a _white_ stallion in the other? Chance coincidence?
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