# The Ancients...pyramids and big damned rocks... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977 "2000-06-20T14:22:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/61 "2014-05-04T19:46:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What **Magiver** is describing [looks like this](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/pugbug/PyramidRoller-05.jpg) I think it’s a cool theory, but not sure it’s the actual method used. But it’s not like the pyramids predate the wheel - just the spoked kind, AFAIK. Your Googlefoo is better than mine. I saw this idea as related to the pyramids years ago and I thought there was mention of finding these artifacts. I can’t find anything on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/62 "2014-05-04T20:22:17Z")
They used sand. Wet sand. [http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/05/01/secret-building-pyramids-wet-sand/](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/05/01/secret-building-pyramids-wet-sand/) ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/63 "2014-05-04T20:24:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not talking about making clay pots. Clay is very fine material, finer than sand, that is composed of mineral that will tend to set after wet forming. They aren’t going to fire the surface they’re dragging things on. **I’m just saying it makes no sense to belief the surface they were dragging sledges on was sand.** Why would you drag something over sand wet or dry, when you can drag it over a more compact material? and the water was used to allow the surface to pack tighter under pressure instead of crumbling. It’s possible they were putting a lubricant down, but I think the cost to them would be enormous since it wasn’t recoverable, if they were putting any liguid down at all it would have to be water. Or urine possibly, if you can think of any reason it would be better than using water. True enough. Sand is highly permeable and clay is just the opposite. Also, you have to think of the load on wet sand versus a layer of clay (or even “fat” silt). Clay has pores in it that will soak up water until saturation. Pouring more water on packed clay will either result in ponding or runoff. Water will just infiltrate sand. One advantage sand has, however, is clay tends to stick. Take a railroad spike and drive it into firmly packed clay–it is hard to get out. With sand it is relatively easy, wet or dry. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/64 "2014-05-04T20:25:09Z")
[![](https://phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2014/wallpainting.jpg) ](https://phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2014/wallpainting.jpg) It was sand. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/65 "2014-05-04T20:32:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your Googlefoo is better than mine. I saw this idea as related to the pyramids years ago and I thought there was mention of finding these artifacts. I can’t find anything on the subject. I remember an article about it in an old _Omni_ magazine - which, in hindsight, doesn’t necessarily speak well of the theory - but they did have some pictorial evidence for arc-shaped pieces I’ve not seen since. FWIW, [here’s](http://historum.com/ancient-history/40538-great-pyramid-giza-3.html)where I found the pic (there’s also a mural tracing of a statue being dragged on a sledge while lubrication is poured in front of it) but possibly it’s originally from [here](http://jpdery.com/Pyramid%20Builder%27s%20Aid.htm). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/66 "2014-05-05T01:03:19Z")
> [@avalongod](#): > > Add to the mystery…how did ancient Britons get Stonehenge built? Especially those 30-ton cross stones hung, what, 20 feet off the ground? [Oh, that was one of Merlin’s.](http://www.uiweb.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/court/merlin/stoneh.htm) But he just moved it from Ireland, which still leaves the question of how the Irish built it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/67 "2014-05-05T01:57:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I remember an article about it in an old _Omni_ magazine - which, in hindsight, doesn’t necessarily speak well of the theory - but they did have some pictorial evidence for arc-shaped pieces I’ve not seen since. > > FWIW, [here’s](http://historum.com/ancient-history/40538-great-pyramid-giza-3.html)where I found the pic (there’s also a mural tracing of a statue being dragged on a sledge while lubrication is poured in front of it) but possibly it’s originally from [here](http://jpdery.com/Pyramid%20Builder%27s%20Aid.htm). Back in it’s early days of publication I had a subscription to Omni. May also have been where I read an article about the stones being poured like concrete. Thanks for looking it up. I wasn’t explaining it well at all. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/68 "2014-05-05T02:08:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They’re 4 individual arches that attach to the sides of the stone and are banded together. The stone is not inserted. > > [here’s a video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4) of one man moving stones the size of Stonehenge by himself without using any pulleys. The problem with that guy, as I’ve said already, is he had _prepared surfaces to do that one every single time he was demonstrating_. If he moved any of those demonstrations to the grass five feet away, it wouldn’t have worked. So, in the case of stone henge, where’s the long solid surface they used to do this lever and fulcrum setup? As for the wheels with banded arches, you still need to lift it. You can’t attach four sides without having access to all four sides. So you either banded three arches together and then flipped it to cradle the stone in the 3-part arch and then added the fourth piece, or your lifted it up in some fashion to attach all four sides. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not talking about making clay pots. Clay is very fine material, finer than sand, that is composed of mineral that will tend to set after wet forming. They aren’t going to fire the surface they’re dragging things on. I’m just saying it makes no sense to belief the surface they were dragging sledges on was sand. Why would you drag something over sand wet or dry, when you can drag it over a more compact material? and the water was used to allow the surface to pack tighter under pressure instead of crumbling. It’s possible they were putting a lubricant down, but I think the cost to them would be enormous since it wasn’t recoverable, if they were putting any liguid down at all it would have to be water. Or urine possibly, if you can think of any reason it would be better than using water. I wasn’t talking about firing (per se) either. I was talking about clay simply drying. _Dry clay_ takes time to reabsorb water. So, let’s say they form a clay roadway for stones to move across. They would have to keep it constantly wet, or the clay would dry in the sun. So your entire clay road would have to have been constantly wet (flooded Nile, maybe? have the clay underwater during the floods that kicked farmers off their land?) or it would have had to had an army of people watering it the night before and on days that it was going to move rock. As for the “Sand” hypothesis, your argument is with the research paper’s authors. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/69 "2014-05-05T02:53:58Z")
[QUOTE=Farin] The problem with that guy, as I’ve said already, is he had prepared surfaces to do that one every single time he was demonstrating. If he moved any of those demonstrations to the grass five feet away, it wouldn’t have worked. So, in the case of stone henge, where’s the long solid surface they used to do this lever and fulcrum setup? [/QUOTE] Well, it’d be over 4000 years old. If they only used it to move the stones, and if it was made of, say, wood, it’s be long gone. Or, they could have used a wooden cradle (of course, they used boats for part of the trip, since IIRC several of the blue stones have been found in rivers where they sunk). The point is, no one knows exactly how they did it. They didn’t write it down. But there are several plausible theories on how they COULD have done it with the technology that they had. Did they do it just like the guy in the video? Maybe. Or maybe not. The point of the video is to show a way it could have been done. > [@](#): > > As for the wheels with banded arches, you still need to lift it. You can’t attach four sides without having access to all four sides. So you either banded three arches together and then flipped it to cradle the stone in the 3-part arch and then added the fourth piece, or your lifted it up in some fashion to attach all four sides. The same technology/technique that they used to erect the stones would have sufficed to put the cornered wheels on it. Off the top of my head I can think of several, and I’ve seen a number of demonstrations of how things like obelisks were raised, so I don’t think it would have been that much of a challenge for the people of that time. That’s the thing…these folks worked with this stuff all the time. They knew what they could do, and they were perfectly ok with having a gang of people sit there with saws made of copper and sand to cut through stone a few millimeters at a time, or to pull on ropes for 8 hours a day and do nothing else for a season. Like I said, it’s just engineering, and humans are pretty good engineers. The REAL trick, IMHO, is the logistics. You’d need a whole system to feed, house and even heal your work gangs, and that meant you needed to have a grasp of logistics as well as a surplus and a motivated work force who wanted to do this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977/70 "2014-05-05T06:11:31Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > As for the wheels with banded arches, you still need to lift it. You can’t attach four sides without having access to all four sides. So you either banded three arches together and then flipped it to cradle the stone in the 3-part arch and then added the fourth piece That’s exactly what you’re doing, allegedly. Or, at least, do two opposite sides, roll partway, then the other two. My [second link](http://jpdery.com/Pyramid%20Builder%27s%20Aid.htm) shows the sequence (although the pictures omit the strapping[because SketchUp is _hard_, y’all 🙂], the text mentions them). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ancients-pyramids-and-big-damned-rocks/22977.md?page=3)