# The answer to the gun problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833 "2000-09-20T06:33:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/41 "2000-09-20T21:36:05Z")
Andros, I don’t know it is like a gut feeling a have about this guy. Tell you the truth I like Clinton more than Gore(not saying I like Clinton but Gore scares the crap out of me). I just don’t trust him. He seems like an extremist to me. A little tree hugging is ok but this guy seems like he wants to “do” the tree. See my point? I know he doesn’t like guns and wants more gun control and he had his way he would do away with guns all together. ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/42 "2000-09-20T21:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\*But that’s beside the point, because even if the populace DOES form a well armed, well regulated militia, shitheads like you come along and scream “cult, klan, crazy” until they’re forced into a standoff with the Government. \*\* If the shoe fits…Anyhow, I’d say that meant “regulated,” as in “covered by law, dealing with government, etc.” Forgive me if I don’t get out the Webster’s, but the words are probably too big anyhow. 24 anti-government freaks in Minnesota doesn’t really count as “well regulated.” \*\* > [@](#): > > Like I said in chat last night, “First they came for the gun owners, but I said nothing, because I didn’t own a gun…” Christ man, open your eyes to what’s happening around you, to your country.\*\* Like the easily available, cheap guns that kids get? BTW, that was written by a modern right-winger, not a german. \*\* > [@](#): > > Grammar and politics don’t mix? Apparently with you, intelligence and speaking don’t mix.\*\* Didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, Homer. Touchy? Or are you Dumbya in disguise? \*\* > [@](#): > > And there’s no such thing as a ‘registered’ Republican, either, you dumb fuck. Go shove stuff from your garbage pile up your ass and sing me a lullabye. > > –Tim \*\* In every state I’ve lived, you register to vote. When you register, you do so as a republican, democrat, independent, or reform party member. That way you get to vot in the primaries. Speaking of dumb fucks… Homer, if I pissed you off in another thread, too bad. But don’t come in here flaming away because I criticized your unreadable post elsewhere. That’s trolling. And it wouldn’t be a bad idea to get your facts straight before your knee jerks. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/43 "2000-09-20T22:05:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Forgive me if I don’t get out the Webster’s, but the words are probably too big anyhow. 24 anti-government freaks in Minnesota doesn’t really count as “well regulated.” Maybe you _should_ get out the Webster’s, dumbshit, and look up the word “militia”. I’ll give you the short version: militia = all American adults (simplifying for the sake of brevity). Well-regulated? Better translation would be “we don’t let these ‘adults’ go around doing whatever the hell they want to”. Seems “well-regulated” to me if everyone simply obeys the law. Now, finally, explain this part to me: > [@](#): > > …the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Seems rather straightforward, right? What hidden clauses or loopholes do you see in that? Unless you’re an idiot, none. Now, is an AK-47 (overrated though it may be) an “armament”? Again, unless you’re an idiot, yes. What does this tell you? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/44 "2000-09-20T22:31:21Z")
First, I think from my experience (Warning! Sample size of 1!) the AK is able to go much longer between cleanings without suffering from jams, mis-feeds, or sticking action, than the AR15 (M-16 equivalent). I own and have used both weapons at length for target shooting, and it seems the AK can get quite a bit dirtier and still function normally. And don’t they need to be able to? I mean, with corrosive primers and fouling powder residue and those steel, easily-rusted cases and slugs - they really do need some extra clearance and accomodation, don’t they? **stofsky** , your points are old, shopworn, and have been well-refuted over in GD. There’s really no point in starting “2nd Amendment Debate No. 1e+28”, is there? ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/45 "2000-09-21T00:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Forgive me if I don’t get out the Webster’s, but the words are probably too big anyhow. 24 anti-government freaks in Minnesota doesn’t really count as “well regulated.” > > Maybe you _should_ get out the Webster’s, dumbshit, and look up the word “militia”. I’ll give you the short version: militia = all American adults (simplifying for the sake of brevity). > > Well-regulated? Better translation would be “we don’t let these ‘adults’ go around doing whatever the hell they want to”. Seems “well-regulated” to me if everyone simply obeys the law. > > Now, finally, explain this part to me: > > > [@](#): > > > > …the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. > > Seems rather straightforward, right? What hidden clauses or loopholes do you see in that? Unless you’re an idiot, none. > > Now, is an AK-47 (overrated though it may be) an “armament”? Again, unless you’re an idiot, yes. > > What does this tell you? \*\* Militia: 1. originally, any military force. 1. in the United States, all able-bodied male citizens between 18 and 45 years old who are not already members of the regular armed forces: members of the National Guard, Organized Reserve Corps (Army and Air), and the Naval and Marine Reserves constitute the _organized militia_; all others, the _unorganized militia_. Webster’s unabridged, 2 Ed. Your point? Unorganized and unregulated seem to be close in meaning. And don’t drop the dependent clause in the 2nd Amendment. Dumbass. Regulated, in the same dictionary (condensed for brevity) means governed. But you bullet-headed “you can take my gun when you can pry my cold, dead hands from it” Charlton-Heston-no-acting-mother-fucker worshipping, we all had guns in the old days (not true) dipshits can’t figure that out. You want guns for national defense? Let’s take the Swiss approach. You get a governmentally issued weapon. You get a _sealed_ can of ammunition. You can open it when ordered by an authority of the citizen militia. Bite me. ---
**Author:** ![Kvallulf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@Kvallulf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kvallulf)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/46 "2000-09-21T00:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*You know its fun being sarcastic and funny talking about using these weapons to go on killing sprees but lets look at what these weapons could really help with. > > How about when that nut was shooting people from the tower at UT. A civilian could have taken him out sooner saving more lives if he had been spraying the top of that tower with an AK47 or M16. Btw I don’t think there should have been any proble, with the cops letting civilians shoot at that wacko. He was killing innocent people he did not need a trial. He needed to be stopped. > \*\* They did take a civilian up to the top of the tower, I think he had a handgun. However, Having a bunch of civilians with no proper training spraying anything is a scary thought. I can’t count the times I have had friends jump into my field of fire when out playing paintball. Just imagine the mass confusion if there were a bunch of people with automatics and no communication trying to assualt the tower. How do you identify the bad guy(s)? ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/47 "2000-09-21T01:24:48Z")
I concede the registry comment. I was being Missouri-centric, where you become a party member by declaring your membership. But you, Stofsky, I shall no longer waste words on you. Your flames are tepid, as is your intelligence. To Coventry with the troll. BTW, you’re going to post something along the lines of “Yeah, well… well… you too!” because I know you’re not smart enough to think of anything else, you skinbag. –Tim ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/48 "2000-09-21T01:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > \*\*Rickjay: My bad on the AK-74 calibre, you’re of course right. > > I’ve never fired the M-16, our Army used H&K G3 rifles back then. Not bad weapons at all once you learn how to handle them, but 7.62x52 delivers an unpleasant recoil if you’re not careful. And of course, you have to compensate for distance with the relatively low muzzle velocity. Nah; I think I’ll stick with my choices. > > S. Norman \*\* The H&K is 7.62? So was the old FNC1, which was the first rifle I learned to use in the Canadian Army. Hell of a recoil. I didn’t like it because it was big and clumsy - the recoil didn’t bother me, I’m a big guy - and because, well, it was only a semiauto, so if you wanted to lay down a suppressive fire you needed machine gun support. Reserves, so they cheaped out. The M-16 (or we call it a C-7A2) was a pleasant change. Them little 5.56 bullets travel fast. And since when was an M-16 hard to clean, or need excessive cleaning? I didn’t find it troublesome at all. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/49 "2000-09-21T02:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Regulated, in the same dictionary (condensed for brevity) means governed. Then maybe you should look up the word “governed”, because even the Average Joe, gun-owner or not, falls under the stewardship of the government. What, you had the impression that gunowners all want to be able to shoot anything, anybody, anytime, anywhere? > [@](#): > > But you bullet-headed “you can take my gun when you can pry my cold, dead hands from it” Charlton-Heston-no-acting-mother-fucker worshipping, we all had guns in the old days (not true) dipshits can’t figure that out. Wow, great argument. You’ve converted me, Miss O’Donnell. I suddenly have the urge to listen to whatever baseless propoganda you spout, even though you have no evidence and demonstrate a level of intelligence that rivals that of mold. Now, what bullshit are you going to spout next? Gov’ment’s got spy satellites constantly monitoring your house? Or telepathic spies trying to steal your thoughts? Tighten your tinfoil hat, pal! ---
**Author:** ![Origato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@Origato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Origato)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/50 "2000-09-21T04:11:12Z")
Jesus, where did this thread go? Now it’s more a discussion of the relative merits of certain assault weapons, or else fantasies of committing mass slaughter. Please guys, I don’t want the FBI at my door, shit! I guess I wasn’t clear: in the future I will only post when completely lucid, instead of after a couple of bottles of wine. It seems that everyone has missed the mark. I hope you shooters have better aim on the range. My point was that instead of imperiling American soldiers in these piece of shit countries (i.e. Somalia), why don’t we just try to buy their fucking guns from them first? And if this is in any way successful, you could try the same thing in the US. You can screw the “Turn in your gun for some baseball tickets” shit, that is a joke. You would have to offer some serious cash. But when you consider what it costs to incarcerate violent criminals, it might turn out to be a cost-effective measure after all. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/51 "2000-09-21T04:25:17Z")
The Heckler and Koch G3 (or, as I lovingly refer to mine, the HK 91) uses 7.62x51, the standard NATO round, AKA the .308. Getting back to the original post about costs, the HK MP5, the Elian weapon, goes for $9-10,000 to civilians IF you have a Class 3 license. My semi version, (lovingly refered to as the HK 94), goes for about $4000. However, Heckler and Koch sells the MP5 to law enforcement for $1500. ---
**Author:** ![Origato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@Origato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Origato)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/52 "2000-09-21T04:34:58Z")
Did anyone see Politically Incorrect tonight? Jesse Ventura was on and discussed this very issue (I just heard it). Is he reading the SDMB? BTW, I am an American citizen, a Libertarian, live in Texas, and own guns, if anyone is curious. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/53 "2000-09-21T05:44:10Z")
I really am screwing up my ammo data, am I not ? - probably comes from always having the government provide me with it. “SQUAD, LOAD RIFLES!” “Ehm - excuse me sir, sergeant sir, would this happen to be 7,62 x 51 mm or 7,62 x 52 mm ?” “This would happen to be Govt-issue standard regulation ammunition, for the use of, and if you’re done wasting everybody’s time, LOAD THAT RIFLE, SOLDIER!” But yes, the G3 fires the NATO 7,62 round and I really thought that was 7,62 x 52. Well, ignorance was fought. And I’ve no doubt that this thread is going directly into our respective files 😃 S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/54 "2000-09-21T07:47:33Z")
What pisses me off is that Kansas City news stations were bragging about bringing in 3000 or so guns in a gun turn in thing last week. Yeah, great idea, you fucking geniuses! Take the guns away from the _ **LAW ABIDING CITIZENS** _ so they no longer have protection against **criminals** who’d _never_ turn _their_ guns in! SWEET MOTHER OF GOD what total fucking MORON thought of this shit?! This is the worst plan I’ve **ever even heard of!** and I’ve heard of ALOT of stupid shit!!! FUCK!!! ARGGGGHHHH!!! –Tim ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/55 "2000-09-21T08:46:40Z")
I can’t believe you all think the solution to America’s gun problem is more guns! Read this (by an American): No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True. Now-in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now-the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns-woooo, I’m getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard. Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. Now let’s go through those numbers again, because they’re a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns-woooo, I’m getting a stiffy-twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there’s no connection, and you’d be a fool and a Communist to make one. There’s no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That’s absolute proof. You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too. (Angry tourist voice) You call this a sandwich? BANG! BANG! You don’t boil pizza! BANG! BANG! (Scared English voice) That’s the way we eat here, that’s the way we eat here! BANG! (Tourist voice) This food sucks! BANG! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/56 "2000-09-21T09:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > Yeah, great idea, you fucking geniuses! Take the guns away from the _ **LAW ABIDING CITIZENS** _ so they no longer have protection against **criminals** who’d _never_ turn _their_ guns in! You’be got a bit of a vicious circle here. The citizens buy guns to protect themselves against the criminals who carry guns, which they feel they need because they know the citizens may have guns. Can you ever envisage a time when you won’t feel the need to be armed? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/57 "2000-09-21T09:52:09Z")
It’s a cultural thing, OK ? Most Europeans, including the criminals, consider it slightly ridiculous to tote firearms. Even a guy like me - who happen to like shooting - wouldn’t dream of carrying a firearm around in everyday life. What, am I supposed to be Dirty Harry or something ? Sheesh. I shoot pistols for fun and have learned to shoot rifles etc. to defend my country. That I have come to consider rife shooting decent fun is a bonus. I consider blowing things up decent fun as well, but I wouldn’t claim it as a right. So much for this European’s point of view. However, as I’ve discovered by getting my ass flamed off in too many 2nd amendment debates to mention, this is not how a majority of US citizens think. Apparently, lots of US people consider arming themselves a prudent move and defend this by pointing out (among other things) the threat posed by well-armed criminals. If US culture values the freedom to own guns higher than the safety of living in a disarmed society, that’s their prerogative. I personally prefer the European way, but it’s not up to me to tell US posters that their culture is inferior. They’ve made their bed and most of them are quite happy to lie in it. They’ve chosen another way, not necessarily an inferior one. That being said, I do get mad when pro-gun Americans “prove” the inferiority of gun control by fiddling European or Australian stats, by pulling the old “we saved your butts in WWII” argument or by stating flatly that “gun control means only criminals will be armed”. Yes, you helped us, but if I recall correctly, you did so with Government Issued weapons. And no, gun control doesn’t necessarily lead to armed criminals, because criminals are under cultural influences as well. I had a point, but I must have left it in my other pants. Damn. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/58 "2000-09-21T10:06:08Z")
I agree with everything you’ve said, and really don’t want to have a debate on the 2nd amendment. I’m just curious because one of the most common reasons given in this and some other threads for having a gun was self defence. This sort of leads to the question of whether the people who currently feel this requirement could ever envisage a time when they wouldn’t feel the need to be armed to be safe? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/59 "2000-09-21T10:16:33Z")
FWIW, if a bunch of criminals did burst out of a bank toting guns, I’d _much_ rather the police just let them get away. They’d catch 'em in the end anyhow if it got the stand-off point, surveillance being what it is. The idea of pitched gun battles in the street frankly terrifies me. But **Spiny Norman** is 100% correct about that being the cultural influence. In the UK we don’t like the idea of guns in everyday life. If you weirdo Amercians (heavy on the smiley there) want to surround yourselves with instruments of death then so be it. It’s not like I have to go live there. regards, pan incidentally where the hell do the IRA come into this? Britain has an overwhelming military presence in Northern Island - we hardly need to be pumping more guns in there. And all the guns you like aren’t gonna stop someone planting a bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/60 "2000-09-21T10:26:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*Britain has an overwhelming military presence in Northern Island - we hardly need to be pumping more guns in there. And all the guns you like aren’t gonna stop someone planting a bomb. \*\* The last time Britain used guns to stop a bomb was in Gibralter, and then you got done for “abusing the human rights” of a man walking around with x pounds of semtex by shooting him. Did stop him planting the bomb though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=4)