# The answer to the gun problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833 "2000-09-20T06:33:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/61 "2000-09-21T10:28:14Z")
Actually apart from the “troubles” related stuff Northern Ireland has the lowest crime rate in the U.K. This has something to do with all the armed police/army on the streets but also has a lot to do with the IRA/Loyalist terrorists who enforce their own justice on criminals. Here in Dublin the amount of armed criminals is on the rise. There has been a good few criminals shot on the street and in bars by rival gangs. Armed raids are on the rise. Anyhoo back to the thread. I feel that the gun culture in America is so ingrained in society that the idea of removing guns is impossible. Education and safety laws are the only way to go IMO. I have shot handguns on a range , shotguns(clay pigeon shooting) and have had a great time at both. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/62 "2000-09-21T10:46:55Z")
Sorry to continue the hijack but I have to address this. > [@](#): > > The last time Britain used guns to stop a bomb was in Gibralter, and then you got done for “abusing the human rights” of a man walking around with x pounds of semtex by shooting him. No. They were accused of killing 2 men and 1 woman on the street who were not armed and were not given any chance to surrender. The 3 were known terrorists and had a large bomb in their car. The whole point was that the SAS carried out a execution. Governments are held to a higher level of answerability than terrorists and so the British Gov. was criticised for not carrying out due process. Although they got the right people **this** time the authorities have been known to make mistakes. Just ask the Guilford Four or the Birmingham Six. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/63 "2000-09-21T13:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffer Spice \* > \*\*I can’t believe you all think the solution to America’s gun problem is more guns! > > Read this (by an American): > No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True.\*\* Jesus F. Christ - you can’t even get that one right? Yet another urban legend - “England is such a civilized, peaceful, fun-loving nation that the police don’t have handguns.” What the fuck were they carrying at Heathrow then last month when I was there - big, handgun-shaped dildos? Oh yes, and I have _never_ seen an American airport where the police carry **fully automatic machine guns** like I’ve seen at both Heathrow and Gatwick. Sounds simply dreadful. > [@](#): > > **Now-in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen.** Wait, I don’t get this. It must be my uncivilized American brain. There are no handguns in England you say, yet there were also 14 deaths? Wow, that’s some feat. I suppose you’ll blame it on the barbaric Americans, who obviously were standing on the shores of Massachusetts Bay and firing their handguns at England in defiance at King George III. > [@](#): > > **England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths.** OK, now “no one has guns”? Of any kind? Wow - it gets even more surreal with each sentence. To paraphrase **pepperlandgirl** , are there also unicorns and elves in your world too? Over here, they were all killed by the crack-crazed 9-year-old rape gangs running around with their AK47’s purchased with their lunch money from the Klan. > [@](#): > > **You know, fourteen deaths from handguns. Probably American tourists, too. (FURTHER MINDLESS DRIVEL SNIPPED TO PRESERVE SANITY)** You know, I…aw shit, what’s the point. You may have had something intelligent to say once, but it got lost between your brain and the fingers. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/64 "2000-09-21T13:43:18Z")
**Biffer Spice** : How do you explain the fact that in American states where nondiscretionary (meaning “shall issue absent a felony record or mental illness”) permits to carry concealed weapons have been adopted, meaning more people on the street were packing guns, violent crime **decreased** , and at a faster rate than in states where such permits were not adopted? Or will you, like most (well-meaning, I’m sure) gun-control advocates, simply ignore that inconvenient reality? ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/65 "2000-09-21T13:49:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Jesus F. Christ - you can’t even get that one right? Yet another urban legend - “England is such a civilized, peaceful, fun-loving nation that the police don’t have handguns.” What the fuck were they carrying at Heathrow then last month when I was there - big, handgun-shaped dildos? Oh yes, and I have _never_ seen an American airport where the police carry fully automatic machine guns like I’ve seen at both Heathrow and Gatwick. Sounds simply dreadful.** Yes, you’re right, the American cops are real peace-lovers aren’t they? > [@](#): > > Wait, I don’t get this. It must be my uncivilized American brain. There are no handguns in England you say, yet there were also 14 deaths? > [@](#): > > OK, now “no one has guns”? Of any kind? Wow - it gets even more surreal with each sentence. To paraphrase **pepperlandgirl** , are there also unicorns and elves in your world too? Over here, they were all killed by the crack-crazed 9-year-old rape gangs running around with their AK47’s purchased with their lunch money from the Klan. Now you’re being deliberately obtuse. Guns are not allowed, with limited exception. That is the point being made by Bill Hicks. The connection being made, which I’ll try and make a bit more clearly for you, is that in a country where handguns are NOT allowed, there are very few handgun-related deaths, and in a country where handguns ARE allowed, there are a lot. I posted that message, written and performed by Bill Hicks, because it summed up pretty nicely the opposition to the argument being used on this site that the solution to the gun problem in America is **MORE** guns, that the teachers having guns as well as the sicko’s is preferable to the sicko’s NOT having guns. I accept it would be hard to enforce, and is an idealistic concept that no-one have guns, but apparently, it is not even an idealistic concept to a lot of people, who would rather EVERYONE was armed than NO-ONE. > [@](#): > > You know, I…aw shit, what’s the point. You may have had something intelligent to say once, but it got lost between your brain and the fingers. \*\* Often happens, unfortunately. I’ll try and take notes. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/66 "2000-09-21T13:52:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by pldennison \* > “shall issue absent a felony record or mental illness”_\* Sorry, I’m probably being very thick, but I don’t understand that definition. Absent? Do you mean “issue even if the person has a felony record or mental illness”? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/67 "2000-09-21T13:55:00Z")
America has 4 times the population of Britain. It has over 1000 times the level of gun related crime. Do you think that the tighter gun controls in Britain are a factor, or do you feel that this is down to other circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/68 "2000-09-21T13:57:16Z")
Anthracite, You criticised Biffer Spice for saying ‘No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True.’ Yes, more precise would have been: ‘The English police don’t carry guns (except at major airports). If needed, a senior police officer gives permission for cops to be issued guns.’ I don’t know why machine guns are carried at airports (it came in several years ago). Perhaps they thought terrorists would come in on a hijacked plane? But on the streets of England, it’s certainly not an ‘urban legend’ - the cops simply don’t carry guns. Biffer Spice said ‘-in England last year, they had 14 deaths from handguns… in America 23,000 deaths’ Instead of addressing this point, you responded sarcastically to the phrase ‘England, where no one has guns’ Yes, it should have said something like ‘England, where there are strict gun controls, no-one has a carry permit for the streets etc … (I think farmers are allowed guns on their private land if they can satisfy the police they shoot animal pests)’ Now obviously the US population is about 6 times as large as ours, so you’d expect that many more gun murders, but you need to explain why your system of using guns leads to so many more gun deaths. Incidentally I can think of a couple of British school tragedies. In Dunblane, a nutter shot many children. It led to even more gun control. Another incident saw a young teacher get a gallantry award for trying to stop another crazy attacking children. Since he had a machete, no-one died… ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/69 "2000-09-21T14:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > **Now obviously the US population is about 6 times as large as ours, so you’d expect that many more gun murders, but you need to explain why your system of using guns leads to so many more gun deaths.** Sorry Glee, US population is 275,562,673 (July 2000 est.), and the UK is 59,511,464 (July 2000 est.) - So it’s not even 6 times the population. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/70 "2000-09-21T14:09:53Z")
pldennison, You asked ‘How do you explain the fact that in American states where nondiscretionary (meaning “shall issue absent a felony record or mental illness”) permits to carry concealed weapons have been adopted, meaning more people on the street were packing guns, violent crime decreased, and at a faster rate than in states where such permits were not adopted?’ I’d like to see the figures (to make sure there is a significant statistical difference), but there may well be a connection between allowing concealed guns and a reduction in violent crime. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive increase (as per previous posts) in handgun deaths when these guns are freely available. I do appreciate that your Constitution is tremendously important in guarding individual freedom (wish we had one!), and that many Americans seem genuinely worried that the Government will do something to them if gun controls are imposed. (Was Waco an example of this ?) Also it’s difficult to disarm the police / citizens when they’ve had guns for so long. That’s one reason our police don’t want guns automatically - ‘you can’t put the genie back in the bottle’. ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/71 "2000-09-21T14:14:35Z")
A solution. Keep your guns, but outlaw amunition. Your precious 2nd amendments rights retained and no-one gets shot. Easy really. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/72 "2000-09-21T14:16:16Z")
Gary Kumquat, thanks for the correction. I’m trying to work and post here, so I couldn’t check the numbers - but tried to be on the safe side. Am I too polite for the Pit? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/73 "2000-09-21T14:17:32Z")
Who gives a crap about what happens in England. Didn’t we kick their butt over two hundred years ago. This is American and we fought them so we could have the right to own guns. And now you are comparing us to them? I bet if our forefathers knew this, they would roll over in their graves. If you don’t like it(here in the US guns and all), get yourself a funny accent, drink some hot tea, & move your butt to England. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/74 "2000-09-21T14:20:46Z")
Glee - I took advantage of the CIA’s excellent “world factbook” website at [http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html](http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html). The question remains though, with 5 times the population (being generous), wouldn’t even 100 times the rate of gun crime a tad high? ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/75 "2000-09-21T14:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*Who gives a crap about what happens in England. Didn’t we kick their butt over two hundred years ago. This is American and we fought them so we could have the right to own guns. And now you are comparing us to them? I bet if our forefathers knew this, they would roll over in their graves. If you don’t like it(here in the US guns and all), get yourself a funny accent, drink some hot tea, & move your butt to England. \*\* The reason America fought England is so they could own guns? Interesting racist points to back up your _argument_ there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/76 "2000-09-21T14:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*Who gives a crap about what happens in England. Didn’t we kick their butt over two hundred years ago. This is American and we fought them so we could have the right to own guns. And now you are comparing us to them? I bet if our forefathers knew this, they would roll over in their graves. If you don’t like it(here in the US guns and all), get yourself a funny accent, drink some hot tea, & move your butt to England. \*\* Thanks Bill. Now, do you have any suggestion for why gun crime is disproportionately higher in the US than the UK by population? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/77 "2000-09-21T14:46:13Z")
Wildest Bill, Hello, nice to meet you. You said ‘Who gives a crap about what happens in England. Didn’t we kick their butt over two hundred years ago.’ Actually we were using mainly German mercenaries and also a lot of English people supported the Colonial argument… You said ‘This is America and we fought them so we could have the right to own guns.’ I thought it was about ‘no taxation without representation’. I doubt if there was any gun control in England at the time… You said ‘And now you are comparing us to them? I bet if our forefathers knew this, they would roll over in their graves.’ Actually some of your forefathers came from Boston (Lincolnshire, England)… You said ‘If you don’t like it(here in the US guns and all), get yourself a funny accent, drink some hot tea, & move your butt to England.’ I say, old boy, you’ve got the accent (after all we were first, don’t you know). Yes, cold tea tastes horrible. At least a butt in England is less likely to be shot 😛 ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/78 "2000-09-21T14:56:42Z")
Try this: [http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10willot.html](http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10willot.html) Of course, if you’re one of those people who think Charlton Heston was a great actor, you probably won’t want to read this. Those with open minds and interest in history might look into it. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/79 "2000-09-21T15:21:09Z")
**Glee** : > [@](#): > > I’d like to see the figures (to make sure there is a significant statistical difference), but there may well be a connection between allowing concealed guns and a reduction in violent crime. Here you go. All links refer to a study originally conducted by John Lott, an economist and researcher formerly with the University of Chicago. He studied state- and county-level data on violent and nonviolent crime for **every single county** in the United States from 1977-1992, running regressions for statistics such as: concealed-carry permits; arrest rates; conviction rates; percentages of the population that were white/black, male/female, and of certain age groups; population; population density; per capita income; unemployment; etc. His goal was to find out what statistics affected the rate of violent crime. The **two biggest factors** were the arrest rate, and the availability of concealed handgun permits. Nearly all results were statistically significant at at least the 5% level. [http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/JLS/lott.pdf](http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/JLS/lott.pdf) (this is a PDF file containing Lott’s original research) [More Guns, Less Crime](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0226493636/t/3782-9387712-550397), a book by Lott which reveals his research, explains it, and addresses objections to his results. [The Lott and Mustard controversy](http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Lott_v_Teret/Lott_Mustard_Controversy.html) [A study from the Cato Institute](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-284.html) > [@](#): > > Unfortunately there seems to be a massive increase (as per previous posts) in handgun deaths when these guns are freely available. Not true. In states where concealed-carry permits were adopted, there has been no indication of an increase in crime by permit holders. As to the differences between Britain and England, suffice to so that population and population density only begin to describe the differences between the two cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/80 "2000-09-21T15:25:05Z")
It’ll take a while to sift through all of that. Can I ask you the same question I’ve so far posed to Wildest Bill and Anthracite without answer - America has just over 4 times the population of Britain. It has over 1000 times the level of gun related crime. Do you think that the tighter gun controls in Britain is the main factor, or do you feel that this is down to other circumstances? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=5)