# The answer to the gun problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833 "2000-09-20T06:33:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/101 "2000-09-21T18:20:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffer Spice \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > > \*\*Either admit I am right about this, or go away. \*\* > > I choose option 3. Ignore you and carry on discussing things in a rational non-points-scoring manner with people who are interested in the actual issue rather than Brit-bashing. > Cheers \*\* Oh, OK. :rolleyes: I certainly hope you ignore my post about comparative crime rates here where I live - you’ll find it quite upsetting I’m afraid. You posted inflammatory, incorrect information irrelevant to the real issue at hand, **you’re** the one “discussing things in a rational non-points-scoring manner”? Wow, that’s Clintonesque spin doctoring if I ever saw it. Come on, you posted it, and you got caught. I don’t know why you cannot admit what you did was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/102 "2000-09-21T18:21:50Z")
Okay, I didn’t see your last response prior to making my comments. I respectfully withdraw it. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/103 "2000-09-21T18:58:18Z")
Anthracite, I think you’re making a lot out of Biffer Spice’s remarks. You’ve kindly accepted my more detailed statements, but the two don’t differ much in principle. I appreciate your example about where you live, and (as I’ll confirm below) this is a very complex issue. PlDennison, Thank you for the statistics - adds a touch of class to the debate. WildestBill, I had a sneaky suspicion you weren’t that xenophobic - as you say this is the Pit! To summarise: I think that the concepts of self-reliance, suspicion of Government and fascination with guns are deeply ingrained in American Society. (After all, the Wild West is pretty recent history). Once it becomes ‘the norm’ for citizens and criminals to carry guns, it’s hard to go back. I think that different societies have cultural differences, based on history and geography etc. Britain is a crowded island, had its Civil War centuries ago and has a tradition of ‘moving slowly up thru the ranks’. Somehow these (and other reasons) mean we accept unarmed police - and less armed criminals - more than the US does. I recently visited GenCon (4 day World Roleplaying convention) in Milwaukee. 30,000 participants (naturally 99% US citizens). I took 6 pupils. We saw no swearing, no smoking, no drinking, no weapons and no violence (apart from the Klingons 😉 ). What a nice country! …these are the postings of the Englishman glee; his 5 year mission - to sanitise the Pit… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/104 "2000-09-21T19:41:57Z")
Wanted to jump in with a couple of quick notes. First, an article about crime and guns in Britain: [One in three young criminals is armed](http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,363761,00.html) > [@](#): > > One in three criminals under the age of 25 owns or has access to a firearm, the Government’s researchers have discovered. > > A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation - double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago - and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them. Remember that old saying, “when guns are made criminal, only criminals will have guns”? That kinda appears to be the case, oh my overseas brothers. Also, I wanted to remind everyone of the line in that Bill Hicks routine that followed his gun rant: “Of course, last year England did have 23,000 deaths per soccer game.” ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/105 "2000-09-21T21:02:35Z")
Can I just throw a thought into the fray? Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. And people who want to kill others _will_ find ways to do it, whether they have guns or not. They will use hands, knives, sticks, rocks, or whatever else is handy. Secondly, accidents will happen. No matter what the intended use of a product is, an accident will happen, and people will die. That’s a simple fact of life. It does NOT lessen the trajedy of death, but it is a fact. One way to end fatal accidents is simple education. The more education a group of people have, the less likely they will be to kill someone on accident. Where I grew up, we were all armed at the age of 14. That’s when we got our hunting liscense. Yet, there was never an accidental death in my lifetime, or my parent’s, in that area. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/106 "2000-09-21T21:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns-woooo, I’m getting a stiffy-twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. I’m curious… do those “deaths from handguns” include suicides? > [@](#): > > Once it becomes ‘the norm’ for citizens and criminals to carry guns, it’s hard to go back. Exactly. IIRC, there was never a point in England’s history where its’ citizens were accustomed to a common proliferation of firearms, while in the United States, we _started_ with firearms. Heck, we wouldn’t even exist if our history didn’t intertwine with guns. England, on the other hand, wouldn’t exist without tea, which probably explains their love-affair with the lil’ bags of flavored caffeine 😃 > [@](#): > > his 5 year mission - to sanitise the Pit… T’ain’t gonna happen. Sorry. The Pit is part of our culture, you see… 😃 > [@](#): > > Where I grew up, we were all armed at the age of 14 And in our family, the kids (all eight of the bastards) were accustomed with weapons around the age of 10-12-ish. Not a single accidental discharge, not a single injury… and this is around a dozen guns or so (rifles, pistols, shotguns, etc.). Which would probably tell you that gun-related deaths has nothing to do with numbers, but with the level of responsibility and education. Ever wonder why NRA magazines report such low numbers of gun-related deaths among their members…? Supposedly, they should have the _highest_… ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/107 "2000-09-21T21:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Anthracite, > > I think you’re making a lot out of Biffer Spice’s remarks. You’ve kindly accepted my more detailed statements, but the two don’t differ much in principle. > I appreciate your example about where you live, and (as I’ll confirm below) this is a very complex issue. > \*\* Thank you very much for the civil response. Well, your remarks were accurate and complete, so how could I possibly disagree with them? Anyhow, yes, I’m going to leave Biffer alone now - I’ve made whatever point I started out with (I think). > [@](#): > > **I think that the concepts of self-reliance, suspicion of Government and fascination with guns are deeply ingrained in American Society. (After all, the Wild West is pretty recent history).** I guess I’d be interested in knowing how you define the “fascination” with guns. And I’m not being obtuse purposfully, I am instead curious as to what particular aspects of my society lend themselves to giving an impression of a fascination with guns. Can you define this a little more clearly perhaps? Just like 90% of Americans only know about the UK from our Public Broadcasting TV stations, I imagine most residents of the UK only know about us here in the US from our TV stations and Movies. Another thing is I wonder about is to what extent Americans feel the Wild West is recent history. Using the History of England as an example, the Wild West _is_ relatively recent. However, in the accelerated culture of the US, I rather think that the Wild West is viewed as being “very old history” by most of us. For me, it seems as ancient as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. > [@](#): > > **I recently visited GenCon (4 day World Roleplaying convention) in Milwaukee. 30,000 participants (naturally 99% US citizens). I took 6 pupils. We saw no swearing, no smoking, no drinking, no weapons and no violence (apart from the Klingons 😉 ). What a nice country!** OMIGOD! GenCon is still on? I haven’t heard of it since I stopped playing AD&D about 1984 or so. Wow. I always wanted to go to one… > [@](#): > > \*\*…these are the postings of the Englishman glee; his 5 year mission - to sanitise the Pit… \*\* Eh, I started out with the same mission originally. I decided to try and keep GQ clean, and just take out my mood swings and feminine frustrations here in the Pit. Una ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/108 "2000-09-21T22:44:45Z")
Anthracite, you said in reply to me 'I guess I’d be interested in knowing how you define the “fascination” with guns. And I’m not being obtuse purposefully, I am instead curious as to what particular aspects of my society lend themselves to giving an impression of a fascination with guns. Can you define this a little more clearly perhaps? Just like 90% of Americans only know about the UK from our Public Broadcasting TV stations, I imagine most residents of the UK only know about us here in the US from our TV stations and Movies.’ Well it’s true that I’ve only visited America twice, so I am indeed making bold statements based mainly on TV series and movies. The strong impression left on me is that whenever trouble arises, Americans reach for a gun. OK, this happens in horror movies, TV cop series, action movies etc. , but surely all these wouldn’t be successful if they were unbelievable? Your Constitutional clause and NRA are well known, plus various unsavoury shooting incidents (from presidents down to shcool shootings). In 47 years, I’ve only fired (or held) a gun 5 times. Four times were on my school shooting range (and very few schools in England have one), and the other time was in Canada. By contrast, posters here seem to know a lot about different models (and to have used them). Looking back over this post, it does seem to be rather dodgy evidence :o , but some opinions here in defence of gun use seem rather strong knee -jerk reactions… ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/109 "2000-09-21T23:56:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\*Looking back over this post, it does seem to be rather dodgy evidence :o , but some opinions here in defence of gun use seem rather strong knee -jerk reactions… \*\* No, actually upon some further reflection on my part I see your point. And yes, I would agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/110 "2000-09-22T01:51:29Z")
Regarding a post way back, was it Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction where the guy had his ear cut off? I am not a big movie fan or expert but I thought it was Reservoir Dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/111 "2000-09-22T03:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mipsman \* > \*\*Regarding a post way back, was it Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction where the guy had his ear cut off? I am not a big movie fan or expert but I thought it was Reservoir Dogs. \*\* You are correct, it was the Reservoir Dogs. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/112 "2000-09-22T03:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > In 47 years, I’ve only fired (or held) a gun 5 times. Four times were on my school shooting range (and very few schools in England have one), and the other time was in Canada. By contrast, posters here seem to know a lot about different models (and to have used them). If someone collects baseball cards, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a “fanatic”. 😃 That’s really what it is… a hobby. You go to the shooting range, you fire a few rounds from a gun, and you soon develop a favorite based on the kick and accuracy and power. You also tend to develop a favorite activity… maybe long-range rifle shooting, or pistol shooting, or clay pigeons. As with any hobby that involves complex machines - computers, cars, or just general tinkering - you’d probably want to learn how to take apart and clean the weapon, which would require a familiarity with the design of numerous types of guns. I really don’t think any less of someone if they have no interest in shooting a gun… but lemme tell ya, it’s a lot more fun than a lot of people think it is, as long as you take some time to know what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/113 "2000-09-22T04:30:36Z")
Slightly off the point, but just for the record… I am a 24-year-old American. I have never shot a gun. I have never handled a gun. I have never, to my knowledge, been in the same _room_ as a loaded gun (not counting ones carried by police officers or security personnel). I don’t think my experience is particularly unusual. Yes, there are _segments_ of American culture where guns are pervasive, but there are many others where they are not. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/114 "2000-09-22T07:40:40Z")
SPOOFE Bo Diddly, You said 'If someone collects baseball cards, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a “fanatic”. That’s really what it is… a hobby. You go to the shooting range, you fire a few rounds from a gun, and you soon develop a favorite based on the kick and accuracy and power.’ Yes, I agree. A well supervised shooting range is perfectly acceptable. There’s a cultural difference though (from the UK), because your police are armed, and you have rights to have guns at home (and carry them). Fretful Porpentine, You said 'I am a 24-year-old American. I have never shot a gun. I have never handled a gun. I have never, to my knowledge, been in the same room as a loaded gun (not counting ones carried by police officers or security personnel). I don’t think my experience is particularly unusual. Yes, there are segments of American culture where guns are pervasive, but there are many others where they are not.’ Again, good point. I realise that newspaper / TV reports concentrate on the dramatic. The US is, of course, NOTHING like Lebanon or Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/115 "2000-09-22T08:09:50Z")
You’ve willfully misrepresented my postings above - and I’d been told you were a better debater than that. Here’s my gripes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > Gary, you have stated, **“I’ve never been a big believer in statistics as answers,”** however you’ve thrown out a disparity in supposed gun crime rates more than once here. Do you think statistics are insufficient to answer questions, and only useful to pose a query? If you’d quoted to the end of the sentence, you’d have included my answer. As stated previously, yes I do believe that statistics are a bad source of answers - I base this on the first statistics lecture I ever had, where the lecturer used the same statistics to infer two very different answers in two seemingly valid ways. With a good statistician on your term, as politicians have shown us, you can prove most anything you want. They can pose some very interesting queries though. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > Without giving your your claim any serious consideration, which I refuse to do until you provide us with more than a bald assertion, I can think of a reason for a disparity in crime rates, or at least a reason why your \*\*claim is flawed. \*\* I’m sorry, but this is a misrepresentation. Please check if you like, but to date all I’ve done is asked a question, rather than make any claim or “bald assertion”. Anyway, as a newcomer to this board I’ve no idea if it’s worth continuing this thread here, or if I should start a new one elsewhere - please advise, as I’d like to respond to your suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/116 "2000-09-22T08:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Torque \* > Remember that old saying, “when guns are made criminal, only criminals will have guns”? You know, there really is no excuse whatsoever for throwing out a cliché that hackneyed. Never mind. The best point in the article was this: > [@](#): > > \*from URL supplied by Max Torque \* > Controls such as the banning of handguns after the Dunblane tragedy have had no effect on the number of illegally held guns that are smuggled into the country, supplied by corrupt dealers or reactivated from supposedly decommissioned stock. Well if that’s the case they can start allowing guns over here again, and I can get my Sig back. About time too. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/117 "2000-09-22T08:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > And I also think that some level of gun-related crime is a societal cost that is associated with a societal right to have guns. I for one am willing to accept that cost in return to retain my right to defend my own life and defend myself from being raped. \*\* You know, I could shout with joy to see someone finally come out and state the obvious fact that “some level of gun-related crime is a societal cost that is associated with a societal right to have guns”, and also accept that cost. It’s such a refreshing change from people who’d rather duck & dive around the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/118 "2000-09-22T08:39:20Z")
What’s this ? Everybody is being civil and polite ? You’d think we were fighting ignorance or something… Seriously, I’ve no doubt that I (and a lot of my fellow Europeans) are hopelessly naive when trying to figure out American culture over a distance. Some of our cultural imports from your country aren’t exactly helpful, either (and please understand, this as much a criticism aimed at what we choose to buy as at what you put up for export). When I read about American mayors trying to introduce fines for NOT carrying a firearm or read posts tellng Dopers not to tell people off in traffic on the off chance that the tellee might have a weapon, I start thinking “Dodge City”. This is not fair at all, nonetheless the stories leave a huge impression because the concept is so alien to me. When I read about incompetent politicians and traffic jams, I think “So what else is new” and forget about it. No exotic images to pin those facts onto. So I’m left with the impression that guns have a central role in American culture, because the concept is alien to me and easier remembered. Of course, a civil debate isn’t helped by snotty Europeans yelling “You stupid Yanks should just ban your weapons like civilised people” and equally snotty Americans retorting with “We’re not taking advice from the Eurotrash we beat 200 years ago”. I’ll happily admit to have committed the first of these errors. Heh - and to add to Fretful Porpentines’ anti-stereotyping: I’m a 34-year old Dane. I’ve had an assault rifle or a belt-fed machine gun in my home from the age of 18 and until I moved to Germany a year ago. I’ve shot pistols for sport for years. OTOH, I’ve never carried a weapon outside a firing range except when in uniform and ordered to do so. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/119 "2000-09-22T08:42:56Z")
You know, there’s a distinct worry that if you let people know that the Danish get to have assault rifles & belt fed machine guns in their house, a lot of people might suddenly try to emigrate there. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833/120 "2000-09-22T09:10:51Z")
Well, those were Home Guard weapons - my personal estimate is that you spend on average 26 minutes freezing your butt off on observation exercises per round dispatched with said weapons. It’s not what I’d call a cost-effective way to get your hands on an automatic 🙂 S. Norman [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-the-gun-problem/33833.md?page=7)