# The Antichrist reads the Gospel of Mark; singes appear **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426 "2013-10-05T10:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Antichrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@The\_Antichrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Antichrist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/1 "2013-10-05T10:52:32Z")
First off, I’m not meaning to provoke or harass with this (or my username); but I am certain that Jesus Christ is a fabrication (see the website Jesus Never Existed, for instance - I realise its not a mainstream view, but I think it’s virtually undeniable), and I think Christianity has done great harm to the world. I thought of making a thread on that Jesus myth topic, but then I decided that those arguments had been gone over many times before and I wasn’t likely to change many people’s minds on them. Also, I think a lot of Christians may not really care whether there is historical evidence for Jesus - they find it just sort of “feels right” that he existed. Given that the gospels would be one of the main reasons for that feeling, I thought a critical reading of them might help to dissipate it a little. I don’t necessarily have a problem with the popular conception of Jesus: some sort of person who did nothing but good but was nonetheless horribly executed; but somehow I suspect the Bible does not bear that out. Having said all that, I will endeavour to read it with an open mind, and I may find parts I like. I’ve never read a full “book” of the bible before, so I suppose I’m vaguely interested at what’s in there. Having been raised in a Christian-majority society, I’m familiar with some of the sayings and stories already though. I’ve decided to start with the Gospel of Mark, since that is apparently the one off which the others are based to a large degree. I’ll read and comment on one or two (very short) chapters each day, and maybe answer some replies. If you want to read along, I’m using the [New Revised Standard Version](http://www.devotions.net/bible/00new.htm), I hope that’s fairly standard - it sounds like it is! I realise many of you aren’t Christian anyway, but I think I have my own original take which might be instructive or at least entertaining to those reading. Chapter 1: Okay so we start off with a little bit of prophecy, I don’t know why the voice is crying out in the wilderness but I guess that’s a nice piece of imagery. Some stuff about baptism, which has always seemed ridiculous to me; a preist dipping all the naked babies in cold water seems remarkably like child abuse, also. > [@](#): > > The Gospel of Mark: > ‘The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the thong of his sandals.’ Hmm, I don’t like that much, is it implying that we ought worship the powerful? John doesn’t give another reason why he is not worthy, so it sounds like it is. Verses 9 to 13 are obviously supernatural in nature, but I can’t really complain, that’s religion, and I suppose they could be interpreted as metaphor anyway. John the Baptist gets arrested? Shouldn’t Jesus campaign for his release? Hopefully he does at some point! Jesus says some stuff about the Kingdom of God being near… we’ve been waiting a while now, but whatever. 16 to 20 sees him collect some disciples, though I find it strange that he collected four in one seaside stroll; can’t we have some information about why he decided to do that just then and whether he’d collected other disciples in the previous 20-odd years? Anyway, he goes to the synagogue at Capernum and teaches, but verse 22 troubles me: > [@](#): > > They were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. What do they mean by authority here? He seemed confident? And I can’t help but feel “and not as the scribes” is a populist dig at people who can read and write. 23-28 confuses me… are we supposed to presume that an unclean spirit is a bad thing? I don’t want to, I think dirty people are often pretty good people. Also the unclean spirit’s dialogue is a bit preposterous, no? > [@](#): > > ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.’ I honestly cannot imagine a person saying that series of words. Apart from that, I suppose spirit possession is another supernatural/metaphorical thing that I won’t take issue with. 29-31 tells of JC healing Simon’s mother in law’s fever: > [@](#): > > He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up. Then the fever left her, and she began to serve them. Wow, he turned her into a proper woman again, did he? It’s like magic! :rolleyes: 32-34 does some demon possession stuff. I’ve yet to see much evidence for Jesus being good yet, so how do we know he’s casting out demons? What if he’s a bad guy casting out good spirits? 35-39 is nothing too remarkable, although this is a bit confusing: > [@](#): > > He answered, ‘Let us go on to the neighbouring towns, so that I may proclaim the message there also; for that is what I came out to do.’ Which message? And didn’t it say that he went out to pray? I had to do a little research to figure out what’s happening in 40-45, apparently it refers to a ridiculous and lengthy ritual that healed(!) lepers are told to do in Leviticus 14 (Old Testament). Haven’t they been through enough? I also have a big problem with this healing by touch stuff; I suppose a caring touch can alleviate an illness a little, but doesn’t implying it can be fully healed in an instant offer people false hope, and thereby actually cause a lot of harm? I mean if there was some disclaimer that only Jesus/God can heal by touch, perhaps I wouldn’t be as bothered. Okay, that’s chapter 1 finished. More tomorrow, hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/2 "2013-10-05T11:54:15Z")
What are singes? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/3 "2013-10-05T12:05:36Z")
Why are you the antithesis of nothing ? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/4 "2013-10-05T12:50:22Z")
Shoosh!.. this is not just any Antichrist, it’s _The_ Antichrist. Pay some goddamn attention people. > [@The Antichrist](#): > > Okay, that’s chapter 1 finished. More tomorrow, hopefully. Can’t wait… this is better than 24 Hours, season 1. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/5 "2013-10-05T13:34:51Z")
I thought the high schools had started up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/6 "2013-10-05T13:54:57Z")
I give it a 3 out of 10. Old material, done better by more talented commentators for years. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/7 "2013-10-05T15:15:38Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > Having said all that, I will endeavour to read it with an open mind, and I may find parts I like. > > …Some stuff about baptism, which has always seemed ridiculous to me… > > …Hmm, I don’t like that much… > > …16 to 20 sees him collect some disciples, though I find it strange that he collected four in one seaside stroll; can’t we have some information about why he decided to do that just then and whether he’d collected other disciples in the previous 20-odd years? > > …verse 22 troubles me: What do they mean by authority here? He seemed confident? And I can’t help but feel “and not as the scribes” is a populist dig at people who can read and write. > > …23-28 confuses me… are we supposed to presume that an unclean spirit is a bad thing? I don’t want to, I think dirty people are often pretty good people. Also the unclean spirit’s dialogue is a bit preposterous, no? I honestly cannot imagine a person saying that series of words. > > …29-31 tells of JC healing Simon’s mother in law’s fever: Wow, he turned her into a proper woman again, did he? It’s like magic! :rolleyes: > > …32-34 does some demon possession stuff. I’ve yet to see much evidence for Jesus being good yet, so how do we know he’s casting out demons? What if he’s a bad guy casting out good spirits? > > …35-39 is nothing too remarkable, although this is a bit confusing: Which message? > > …I had to do a little research to figure out what’s happening in 40-45, apparently it refers to a ridiculous and lengthy ritual that healed(!) lepers are told to do in Leviticus 14 (Old Testament). Haven’t they been through enough? > > …I also have a big problem with this healing by touch stuff… So, apparently we’re in for a tedious series of posts in which the OP, having applied his “open mind” to texts written thousands of years ago, snarks over how stupid the whole thing sounds? Sorry, think I’ve got better things on which to spend my limited reading time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/8 "2013-10-05T15:41:25Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > I’ve decided to start with the Gospel of Mark, since that is apparently the one off which the others are based to a large degree. That’s not a bad choice, but it is the shortest and most abrupt of the gospels, and some of the things you complain about as needing more information have more backstory and explanation in Matthew and/or Luke. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/9 "2013-10-05T15:44:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What are singes? I assume they’re the burn marks that appear when the Antichrist touches a holy book. Come on, guys, give him a break. It isn’t every day you get to hear an antichrist’s first reactions to reading one of the gospels. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/10 "2013-10-05T15:50:00Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > So, apparently we’re in for a tedious series of posts in which the OP, having applied his “open mind” to texts written thousands of years ago, snarks over how stupid the whole thing sounds? Sorry, think I’ve got better things on which to spend my limited reading time. I, for one, am immediately renouncing my Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/11 "2013-10-05T16:05:25Z")
OMG! He’s going to set the religious world on fire! I do believe the proper response for these kinds of fires are to: 1. Stop 2. Drop 3. and LOL ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/12 "2013-10-05T16:40:05Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I, for one, am immediately renouncing my Catholicism. I’m going to get baptized again so I can re-renounce my Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/13 "2013-10-05T16:55:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What are singes? [French speaking monkeys](http://translate.google.com/#fr/en/singes). Now, why french speaking monkeys would appear when The Antichrist reads the bible is anyone’s guess. Maybe the OP can elucidate. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/14 "2013-10-05T18:04:41Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > First off, I’m not meaning to provoke or harass with this (or my username); but I am certain that Jesus Christ is a fabrication (see the website Jesus Never Existed, for instance - I realise its not a mainstream view, but I think it’s virtually undeniable), and I think Christianity has done great harm to the world. This is like, if I may use a rather extended analogy, someone choosing the name “AppleH8tr” and starting a thread entitled “Apples suck!” The OP would read something like “I know everyone loves apples, and I’m definitely NOT trying just to get a reaction here, but here’s why apples are terrible!” All of which is fine, except that he accidentally opened this thread on the website for the World Headquarters of Apple Nonenthusiasts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/15 "2013-10-05T18:44:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What are singes? It’s a typo. The thread title should read “The Antichrist reads the Gospel of Mark; singes a pear.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/16 "2013-10-05T18:52:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s a typo. The thread title should read “The Antichrist reads the Gospel of Mark; singes a pear.” Mmm, grilled pears… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Antichrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@The\_Antichrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Antichrist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/17 "2013-10-06T10:44:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What are singes? Haha, had to check that singe was a noun, it seems it is. I didn’t mean some bizarre multilingual pun, though it’s a nice thought. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > So, apparently we’re in for a tedious series of posts in which the OP, having applied his “open mind” to texts written thousands of years ago, snarks over how stupid the whole thing sounds? I’m not really concerned with whether it sounds stupid, rather, I suspect it is an evil document, which fabricates a historical figure for nefarious purposes. I do intend to analyse open-mindedly, though admittedly it may not _seem_ that way. Ok back to gospsel of whatsisname Chapter 2: So chapter 2 begins with the story of healing a paralysed man with two sentences and no touching reported. A bit silly, and I’ve tried but I don’t think I can make out any logic from the discussion, e.g. : > [@](#): > > The Gospel of Mark: > 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 ‘Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ 8 At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, ‘Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, “Your sins are forgiven”, or to say, “Stand up and take your mat and walk”? Gives the appearance of moral instruction without the reality, imo. Also don’t like the apparent implication that he had paralysis due to his sins; how could that be the case? Next there is the story of dinner at Levi’s house, also attended by tax-collectors and sinners. When asked about it, Jesus says: > [@](#): > > ‘Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.’ A reasonable concept, but I suspect it may just be in there to excuse priests for associating so much with unscrupulous powers. Now there’s some stuff about fasting, the bride-groom analogy is clumsy, but he seems to be saying “no reason to fast while the wonderful person is around”. But in what way are you wonderful, Jesus? He then gives a reasonable analogy for why he’s breaking from Jewish tradition, I won’t complain. In 23-27 he seems basically to be saying “don’t take religious rules too seriously such that you starve”. Thanks for that. Chapter 3: I think Jesus may be playing mind games in Verses 1 to 6. There is a man with a withered hand (a long-term thing, I’m presuming), and Jesus says: > [@](#): > > 4 ‘Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?’ But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, ‘Stretch out your hand.’ He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. Well of course they were silent! The question doesn’t make sense given the context. Surely pre-Jesus Jews would not have opposed the saving of lives on the sabbath! I expect a taboo against medical work would only have applied to non-emergency situations. 7-12 is some nice excitement and drama, but “they came to him in great numbers from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, beyond the Jordan, and the region around Tyre and Sidon.” is something that ought really be in the histories, if it were to have happened. I guess 13-19 mostly makes sense, but appointing people to “have authority to cast out demons.” seems strange: why should Jesus determine who has the authority to cast out demons? Then he went home; and I think there’s another mind game here: > [@](#): > > 22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, ‘He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.’ 23 And he called them to him, and spoke to them in parables, ‘How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. He’s putting words into their mouths there; why shouldn’t the ruler of demons cast out demons? Maybe he/she/it doesn’t like those particular demons. Casting it as “How can Satan cast out Satan” makes it conform to a specific ideology, no? One in which there is only one source of evil (and one source of good, presumably). And anyway maybe by “he casts out demons” they meant something more like “he appears to cast out spirits that appear to be demons” > [@](#): > > But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his property without first tying up the strong man; then indeed the house can be plundered. Hmm, don’t know how this applies to the previous stuff; is that an analogy for defeating Satan? It’s not the greatest, it might make some think it was a good thing to tie up a strong man and plunder his property! Next bit apparently claims that blaspheming against the holy spirit is the eternal sin (I’ll interpret sin as ‘bad deed’ here) and will never be forgived… which holy spirit? The Jesus, God, etc. of the Bible? That “holy spirit” seems to be constantly telling people what to do without much reason though… won’t it be the brave, independent-minded people who end up saddled with an eternal sin? But not people who rape, torture, lie, etc.? The concluding verses have him disowning his family in favor of those who do the “will of God”. A bit extreme, probably in there to gain more converts for the church, i.e. those who choose Christianity against their families’ will are made to feel they are “a bit like Jesus”. I might speed things up in the next ones, to make sure I don’t lose interest and energy before the end. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/18 "2013-10-06T11:20:58Z")
The comment about the high schools starting up is apt. It’s _very_ obvious you are a young person based on your stance and writing style. That’s fine–nothing wrong with that. I don’t want to be patronizing or mocking, but the stance is a bit silly. You haven’t read a book of the Bible yet, but you’re calling yourself the Antichrist here. Hey, I’m not a Christian either, but I have studied the Bible a lot via Catholic junior high, high school, and college. It’s a _myth_ with a lot of history and depth to it. You are analyzing it on a superficial and uninteresting level. Now I don’t need to memorize the Korn in order to reject Islam as a belief system, but it would be kinda dumb of me to just start commenting here on a bunch of stuff in there without really understanding it. That’s the impression you’re giving. Might as well quit while you’re ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/19 "2013-10-06T16:16:56Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > Ok back to gospsel of whatsisname How posts are you going to make before we start this debate? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426/20 "2013-10-06T18:27:23Z")
I’m not a Christian after reading the OP. Of course, I wasn’t one _before_, but that’s a minor detail. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-antichrist-reads-the-gospel-of-mark-singes-appear/670426.md?page=2)