# The Apprentice -- 10/14/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 13, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023 "2004-10-13T15:53:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/81 "2004-10-15T15:31:12Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The show is becoming boring and predictable. Team loses, project manager gets fired, ho-hum, what a surprise. Lots of PMs getting cut, but they really probably are the best choice. John - He brought the wrong people in (Andy instead of Wes). Past history indicates when you do that you get fired. He was also a fairly poor manager. Since Andy was safe (as an incorrect opponent), John’s only hope was Kevin. Kevin has a PM win and solid performance on his side. Pamela - Well, this one I can almost agree with. But, based on extra footage it is pretty clear that if she had brought Sandy in, Sandy would be gone. Another poor boardroom choice. Also, her calling a loss a tie was beyond dumb. That’s enough to focus Trump’s anger like a laser. Jennifer C. - No explanation needed. Awful manager. Irritating person. The first 3 firings were not PMs. So, while a 50% firing rate is probably higher than last season, it is not appreciably so and those PMs that have been fired have clearly deserved it twice and talked their way into it once. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/82 "2004-10-15T15:35:12Z")
Speaking of this season vs. last season – We’ve discussed the fact that the constestants don’t seem to have learned anything from watching the first season – do you think the way The Donald is playing the game has changed at all? Has he always gone for “currently most annoying” and we’re just discerning these patterns now? Has Carolyn’s and/or George’s role changed at all? ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/83 "2004-10-15T15:57:28Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I think Maria is beautiful. I don’t particularly like her, but she’s gorgeous. But she has very scarey eyebrows. And I don’t like her one bit! So she’ll probably win. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/84 "2004-10-15T16:34:32Z")
I don’t think Maria will win. Neither will Sandy, Elizabeth, Stacey, Raj, Ivana, and everyone who has annoyed Trump in the boardroom, if last year is any indication. Bill and Kwame both escaped The Donald’s ire for almost the whole season, mostly be being low-key, reliable players. Neither of them was spectacular in either sense of the word: they weren’t big, regular task winners like Amy, nor voluble, flamboyant personalities like Troy, Heidi, and Omarosa, just regular, hard-working, non-obnoxious guys. This is why my prediction is Kevin, Kelly, and Jenn M. for the final 3. JMO, I’ll probably be wrong, but the true irritants likely won’t make the final 4. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/85 "2004-10-15T16:47:42Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > Jenn M. - Last week, HMS Pinafore. You move up due to obvious business acumen, an ability to bring the best out of people, amazing political instincts, and. Eh, who am I kidding. **Just keep wearing that same shirt and I’ll offer you a job climbing my corporate ladder.** Amen! Good grief, people, why in the world are we talking about the dubious physical attributes of Stacy and Maria when one ounce of Jenn from last night puts them all to shame–in competence, personality, and sheer gorgousness. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/86 "2004-10-15T20:10:53Z")
The men lost because the clothes were hideous, not because they priced it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/87 "2004-10-15T21:27:38Z")
The men’s clothes _were_ hideous, and by and large the women’s weren’t, but the interesting thing to me was there was no boardroom discussion of the designs themselves. Which is what led me to believe Trump&Co. didn’t think the men lost based on their designs, which in turn led me to discount my own opinion of the designs altogether. It’s logical to me that the team which produced more normal-looking clothes won, but Trump, George and Carolyn just didn’t talk about that at all. Of course, this gang has a history of focusing on the wrong details, IMO, so go figure. In real life, I don’t think the teams would even be present during the fabric selection. And both teams would have done better to put that task entirely on the designer. Raj was ridiculous trotting out all his plaids, but even if he’d made better fabric choices, why in the world should he think his opinion’s going to be better than the designer’s? Stand out of the way and let the designer design. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/88 "2004-10-15T22:39:29Z")
Has Carolyn or George ever given a testimonial/confessional before? Carolyn’s praise of Kelly gives him quite an edge in my book. And a word about **Mullinator** rankings: You have changed the way I watch this show! Instead of complete immersion, I find myself telling my wife that so-so “will go down in Mullinator’s rankings for that mistake” or “Kelly just solidified his place in the QMII with that comment!” So my wife, who is not a doper, looks at me as if I am listening to CIA frequencies in my fillings! Damn you **Mullinator**! 😃 FYI- Maria HAD to climb a notch! She had a good day. _Especially_ with her handling of Elizabeth. Damn you **Mullinator**! ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/89 "2004-10-15T22:53:11Z")
> [@watsonwil](#): > > Has Carolyn or George ever given a testimonial/confessional before? > > Carolyn’s praise of Kelly gives him quite an edge in my book. > > And a word about **Mullinator** rankings: > > You have changed the way I watch this show! Instead of complete immersion, I find myself telling my wife that so-so “will go down in Mullinator’s rankings for that mistake” or “Kelly just solidified his place in the QMII with that comment!” > > So my wife, who is not a doper, looks at me as if I am listening to CIA frequencies in my fillings! > > Damn you **Mullinator**! 😃 Hey, anytime I can invade the minds of the populace, I consider it a job well done. > [@watsonwil](#): > > FYI- Maria HAD to climb a notch! She had a good day. _Especially_ with her handling of Elizabeth. > > Damn you **Mullinator**! Go back and watch the episode. She didn’t do anything. The designer and sewers put the effort in. As for Elizabeth, that reflects poorly on Maria. She viewed meeting the buyers and getting their opinions as a throwaway task to get rid of a supposed problem. Methinks Donald would frown at that. I expect much movement this week with teams mixing. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/90 "2004-10-15T22:58:51Z")
I think firing John was the right choice. I agree with Kevin that they lost the task when they chose the wrong designer (too couture-y for their audience and not someone who seemed able to walk newbies through the fashion world). However, I don’t really condemn John so much for that mistake. He’s not an expert on chosing fashion designers and it’s doubtful Trump would ever again put him in a position to do so. I think that mistake could have been explained by stating what the reasons were for chosing the designer he did. I do blame John for leaving Kevin and Wes alone to determine pricing and totally taking their recommendations without discussion. Pricing is a much more important task than dressing the models. There was even some voice over (Kelly maybe?) saying that same thing. And John just looked hopeless overall as a PM. He was never in control of that team. All that said, Trump seemed to like John, and I wonder if he could have saved himself by doing two things. First, bring both Kevin and Wes in to the boardroom. I know he didn’t want to have “two strong people” ganging up on him–but he’s a big boy. He should be able to handle it if he wants to advance in this game. I would have brought a third person in this case. Kevin and Wes can only be blamed for pricing. Trump made it clear the team lost on pricing, but I still would have brought someone else in just on the off chance that the pricing decision wasn’t enough to get rid of either of them. The second thing he should have done was make a much better case for why he brought Andy in. I don’t disagree with his decision to do so (though I would have brought him in as a 3rd after Wes and Kevin). True, Andy really didn’t mess anything up. However, I don’t think Andy was ever given the opportunity to mess anything up–they seem to have given him busy work tasks from what I’ve seen. I would have explained that by saying “we don’t want to be here in the boardroom; we want to win–so we don’t give Andy any tasks with real responsibility.” John started to explain that, but he did a lousy job and allowed Kevin to interrupt and refute him. Then he just sat there and didn’t defend what his statement. I’m not sure why Kevin was so pro-Andy, other than maybe he wanted to keep the focus on John as a PM and off of other members of the team (to avoid getting into the discussion of pricing as the real mistake in this project). Of course, I’m really blinded by the fact that I (despite hating their fashions) didn’t like seeing the men lose–for the sole reason that I want Stacy R gone. I really, really hate that woman! ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/91 "2004-10-16T00:51:02Z")
[QUOTE=twicksterGotta join in the chorus of WTF on Raj’s attention-seeking – he went down several points in my estimation, and I’ve really liked him since week one.[/QUOTE] Doncha remember what Raj was wearing in the first show? Remember the walking stick? And you’re just now realized the guy seeks attention? Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/92 "2004-10-16T00:53:23Z")
> [@kka](#): > > I didn’t see it either. Maybe they are saving it for Saturday’s episode. Ummmm, I don’t think there will be an APPRENTICE show tomorrow night. NASCAR is taking over prime time on NBC. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/93 "2004-10-16T01:01:55Z")
> [@annieclaus](#): > > Ummmm, I don’t think there will be an APPRENTICE show tomorrow night. NASCAR is taking over prime time on NBC. Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh! ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/94 "2004-10-16T04:00:28Z")
The men talked themselves into thinking that fashion was some sort of incomprehensible thing. Well, I guess it is mostly, but on the other hand, they were perfectly capable of looking at something and thinking “Oh, I could see someone wearing that to work,” or “That looks really pretty.” > [@MaddyStrut](#): > > However, I don’t really condemn John so much for that mistake. He’s not an expert on chosing fashion designers and it’s doubtful Trump would ever again put him in a position to do so. **Jeevmon** and **CrazyCatLady** made some excellent points on this issue. This wasn’t so much about knowing fashion as it was about knowing your audience. People may appreciate the “edgy” stuff but they’ll actually buy a whole lot more of the more mainstream stuff. The department store buyers were going to place larger orders for things they thought they could sell more of. Another thing that this task was assessing was the ability to let experts do their thing. You can’t be expected to be an expert on everything. So you have to know how to choose the right experts, and manage them properly. And managing them often includes leaving them in peace so that they can do whatever it is that you’ve hired them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/95 "2004-10-18T10:11:20Z")
Parts of Donald’s speech were overdubbed. That was a weird effect, and I wonder why it was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/96 "2004-10-18T10:18:01Z")
I wondered that, too. I’m guessing that Trump’s real-time explanation of the task wasn’t succinct enough, so the producers added in some dubbed lines to speed the show along. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/97 "2004-10-18T13:21:02Z")
Bad sound guy. He should have mic’d it with the same acoustics as the board room. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/98 "2004-10-18T13:24:28Z")
This has been a recurring practice since the beginning of the first season. You would think, though, that they’d spend a wee bit more time making it less obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/99 "2004-10-18T13:35:36Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh! Completely agree. I just don’t understand the interest of watching a bunch of cars go round and round for 330 laps for 2 hours. Tape the damned thing and show the important wrecks and the last 5 laps. Shouldn’t take more than 30 mintues and makes room for more important and interesting shows, like The Apprentice. Or watching paint dry, even. ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023/100 "2004-10-18T14:31:23Z")
Oh, I despise the dubbing. It’s been obvious since the first season. I wish they would find a way to make the difference less noticeable. But I suppose it has to do with accoustics and all that. It’s bad enough when they have to do it while DT is explaining the task, but it was even worse when they did it during the firing. I would love to have seen the extended boardroom episode on Saturday. I really missed it. Yes, I watch it twice. I’m such _The Apprentice_’s bitch. :o [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-10-14-04/269023.md?page=6)