# The Apprentice, 11/18 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 17, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245 "2004-11-17T13:10:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/141 "2004-11-22T22:34:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I thing that Kevin, as PM, probably should have asserted himself after that question and said ,“That was Ivana’s idea. Ivana?” That would have indeed been best. It would also have demonstrated how a good leader can give due credit to others without making himself look like a weakling. Of course, he probably didn’t expect Jenn to jump in at that point, and I’m sure that he didn’t want to simply cut her off. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/142 "2004-11-22T22:41:12Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > And again, you miss the point. As **monstro** , **Green Bean** and I have consistently pointed out, she could have saved the presentation without making it appear as though the Wheel O’Jeans was the product of her fertile imagination. End of story. No, I’m NOT missing the point. You’re reading something into Jenn’s interjection that simply isn’t there. You can point it out as consistently as you want to, but her saving of the presentation DID NOT make it seem as if the Wheel O’Jeans was her idea. Please show one piece of evidence that indicates that she was taking credit. You saw what she said and that in no way indicates credit-stealing. She only discussed the rationale behind the catalogue and used “we.” I think she was answering a version of the question that was asking “Where did you get the idea for the catalogue?” and not “Who came up with the idea for the wheel?” If your only substantiation for your accusation that Jenn was stealing credit was the timing of her comments, I think that’s incredibly thin and colored by your opinion of Jenn. It doesn’t hold up to objective scrutiny. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Wasn’t the question directly about the wheel? I thought the Levis guy had asked somethinkg like “How did you come up with the idea for the wheel?” No. He asked where they got their ideas. He did not mention the wheel specifically, IIRC. > [@Sat on Cookie](#): > > HOWEVER, I think she would have elevated herself a great deal had she made a point to clarify to DT (in the boardroom) Ivana’s superior role in the task (I hate even writing that…I can’t stand Ivana). To me, that would have shown her good judgment (not arguing with the client or saying the client’s assessment of the situation is incorrect) AND ability to credit others. Refresh my memory since I only rewatched the scene in the Levi’s room and then erased my DVR: did Apex even go into the board room? I think the winner was declared in the Levi’s room and the reward was announced right then and there. Only Mosaic went into the board room this time. Thus, I don’t see when Jenn would have had this opportunity to speak up for Ivana. I think some folks just don’t like Jenn and are willing to believe the worst of her with little or no evidence. I understand not being a huge fan of hers and not finding her appealing, but I wish you could try to be a bit more objective about what happened in that episode. ---
**Author:** ![Sat\_on\_Cookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sat\_on\_Cookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sat_on_Cookie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/143 "2004-11-22T22:57:08Z")
You’re right; there would have been no opportunity in the board room. I guess what I mean is that, in my opinion, it would have earned her big points if she had asked for a minute of DT’s time at some point somewhere and clarified that Ivana had steered that project, or something like that. That’s what a good boss would do in real life, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/144 "2004-11-22T23:10:08Z")
> [@Sat on Cookie](#): > > You’re right; there would have been no opportunity in the board room. I guess what I mean is that, in my opinion, it would have earned her big points if she had asked for a minute of DT’s time at some point somewhere and clarified that Ivana had steered that project, or something like that. That’s what a good boss would do in real life, IMO. Jenn learned the lesson that you don’t initiate contact with Trump-- speak when spoken to, say thank you, and shut up. You want she should have chased him down and asked for a minute of his time to praise Ivana? Please. None of them would do that, not just Jenn. You’re holding her to a ridiculous standard and expecting her to act like “a good boss” when she’s not the boss. She’s not even an employee. She’s someone trying to get a job and she’s doing a good job of it. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Sat\_on\_Cookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sat\_on\_Cookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sat_on_Cookie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/145 "2004-11-22T23:22:17Z")
No, I didn’t say “chase him down.” She’s trying to win a position in which she’ll need good leadership skills, right? In my opinion, catching him on the fly, asking for a moment of his time, whatever, would have been a good thing for her to have done. It very well may have backfired (i.e., you are suggesting she stay with the safe route) or it could have made her stand out in a very positive light. Who knows. I hardly think I’m suggesting something ludicrous. I also want to be clear in that I don’t think she did anything heinous. I think she’s fine. I’m simply saying _I think_ she missed an opportunity to be great. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/146 "2004-11-22T23:24:05Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Really, I’m surprised so many people are taken in my Kevin and Ivana’s childish whining. > [@Rubystreak](#): > > The fact that some SDMBer are buying their line of bull doesn’t make them right. I find these comments insulting and rude. Those of us who believe that Jenn did steal credit don’t feel that way because Kevin and Ivana said so. We feel that way because that is how we interpreted the events. You are implying that there is only one correct interpretation of the events: yours. Furthermore, various posters’ assertions that we feel this way because we have “animosity” towards Jenn or are “Jenn-haters” are Ivana-like rationalizations. Perhaps many of the participants in this thread should consider that it is possible for two rational and intelligent people to take the same evidence and draw two different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/147 "2004-11-22T23:35:38Z")
> [@Green Bean](#): > > Those of us who believe that Jenn did steal credit don’t feel that way because Kevin and Ivana said so. We feel that way because that is how we interpreted the events. Could you offer more than just Jenn’s timing as evidence of credit-stealing? Like, something she said, something that one could point to objectively? Or is it just a feeling you get? Because I’m willing to be persuaded but no one has offered anything more than an implication, which is hardly convincing. > [@](#): > > You are implying that there is only one correct interpretation of the > events: yours. I’m flat-out stating that I’ve offered the concrete reasons for my stance, and all you guys have is her timing (taking no creative editing into account, of course) and the fact that she didn’t pull Trump aside to speak on Ivana’s behalf. Plus, Kevin and Ivana’s strenuous protestations. I don’t mean to give offense, but I really don’t see where you guys are coming from on this. > [@](#): > > Perhaps many of the participants in this thread should consider that it is possible for two rational and intelligent people to take the same evidence and draw two different conclusions. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I hope you see that it’s more of a feeling on your part than anything really substantiated. Thus, it seems like you’re coming from a place of dislike and not from some sort of objective measure of Jenn’s behavior. If it’s not, it’s not, but it seems that way, and I hope you understand why. It’s hardly worth getting all insulted about; this is, after all, just a show, and not a very good one at that (though addictive as hell, I admit). ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/148 "2004-11-23T00:51:19Z")
One thing no one seems to be considering is the fact that Jenn, in no way, knew that Levi’s guy was going to be asked who was the best individual on the task. It isn’t always (or ever?) asked by DT. It isn’t like it was Trump she was talking to. She has no real reason to impress Levi’s guy. He isn’t hiring and firing. As far as she knew, her only objective standing before Levi’s guy was to win the task for the team. After that, who cares what Levi’s guy thinks of her individually? The fact that Trump solicited a compliment for Jenn from Levi’s guy was somewhat unexpected, right? Seems like she was just playing along, trying to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/149 "2004-11-23T01:12:18Z")
I disagree. It’s only reasonable to expect that Trump would solicit opinions from the Levi’s team. Jenn might not have known for sure that this would happen, but if she was astute at all, she should have known it was a possibility. ESPECIALLY since this whole ordeal is basically an extended job interview. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/150 "2004-11-23T01:34:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > My guess is that Trump is probably much more clued in than the editing would make it seem or than he lets on in some of the boardrooms … So, my guess is that while he may not have all the info on the _current_ week’s events, I think he gets filled in afterwards and so generally has a sense of what has been going on in previous weeks. This is undoubtedly true. Trump loves the action, the knife-fighting and wild cat-clawing, as much as the brilliant flashes, dedication and adoit machinations. Carolyn and George are certainly giving him highlights and lowlights. Trump is big on being prepared–especially when his name’s on the line. There’s nothing of relevance that he doesn’t know about, including overnight Nielsens. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/151 "2004-11-23T01:35:44Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > This is undoubtedly true. Trump loves the action, the knife-fighting and wild cat-clawing, as much as the brilliant flashes, dedication and adoit machinations. Carolyn and George are certainly giving him highlights and lowlights. Trump is big on being prepared–especially when his name’s on the line. There’s nothing of relevance that he doesn’t know about, including overnight Nielsens. Whoops. This was shot months ago. Forget the Nielsens overstretching. :wally ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/152 "2004-11-23T02:09:08Z")
He surely knows the Nielsens – it’s just that they don’t directly affect what he’s doing during any given week. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/153 "2004-11-23T15:05:19Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I disagree. It’s only reasonable to expect that Trump would solicit opinions from the Levi’s team. Jenn might not have known for sure that this would happen, but if she was astute at all, she should have known it was a possibility. > > ESPECIALLY since this whole ordeal is basically an extended job interview. But no one has been asked that question thus far. Trump didn’t ask Duesch whether Andy was the best guy in the police ad challenge. I can think of numerous other times he could have asked the independent judge who did best and did not. Why would she think that he would this time? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/154 "2004-11-23T15:30:48Z")
If the applicants are at all astute, then they must know that some of these discussions go on in private. Heck, it’s common knowledge that during a job interview, it pays to be charming to ANYONE you meet – even the receptionists and janitorial staff – since there’s a good chance that the hiring manager will ask them what they think as well. These applicants know that they’re competing as individuals, not just as teams. I, for one, think it’s painfully obvious that Trump would quite likely solicit opinions on the individual candidates, even if these discussions occur in private. It’s just plain common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/155 "2004-11-23T17:14:59Z")
Plus, as we discussed earlier in this thread, it seems that Trump does see quite a lot of the footage for each task, maybe not before that week’s boardroom, but he does seem to see it at some point during the course of the taping. So, I’m sure he’ll be able to form his own opinions. I get the feeling that Trump has people who’s opinions he trusts, and he frequently looks to them for information and advice. As **JThunder** pointed out, any person at all can have the decision-maker’s ear. If Trump knows that the janitor is an incisive judge of character, you can bet he’ll ask the janitor what he thinks. The Trumps of the world are good listeners. We know he trusts George and Carolyn’s opinions, and we can be sure that they have conversations that are not on-camera. We don’t know how he feels about the Levi’s guy or Donnie Deutsch, but he probably asked their opinions privately, even if he had no intention of basing his decision on them. This was a while ago, but I wanted to address it: > [@Green Bean](#): > > But the problem with Andy thus far (as I’ve said, and apparently The Donald agrees) is that he only takes leadership if it has been officially assigned to him. He asserted himself when they were deciding who would be the task leader (last week?) and he wanted a chance at it, but then stepped back into a “follower” role. > [@monster](#): > > I was under the impression that Andy said he wasn’t going to let Kelly intimidate him because he also wanted to be team leader. Then it looked like Jen drew a name out of a hat, and it was Kelly’s. Sorry I wasn’t more clear. Yes, that is exactly what happened. My criticism wasn’t that he accepted non-leadership–what else could he have done? My criticism is that he is not a “leader among the followers.” You can show leadership even if you’re not The Leader. I hope that makes sense. We haven’t seen Andy do that. Again, I don’t see it as a huge character flaw or anything. Either it’s something that will change in time for him, or maybe it’s inherent. Probably it will change in time, as we’ve seen good leadership from him at times. If I were Trump, I’d probably not have him win this season, but hire him into the organization somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245/156 "2004-11-23T17:47:32Z")
Good call. Hiring Andy into a junior-level position would probably be a smart move. Although personally, I think he should have taken a similiar approach with Amy Henry and Nick Warnock. Perhaps a mid-level position would have worked better for them, but still, I think he passed up a chance to hire some talented individuals there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-11-18/275245.md?page=7)