# The Apprentice -- 12/9/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768 "2004-12-08T16:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/101 "2004-12-10T20:08:01Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Are we really having this argument again, replete with the snottiness? Don’t tell me to get real. You’re the one with this whole scenario where she COULD NOT respond, but whooops, she DID respond, and despite your denigration of that response, IT WORKED. She impressed the Levi’s guy with her contribution to that presentation. We’re not questioning whether it “worked.” Sure, it worked. It was also taking credit for someone else’s ideas and labor. Saying that “it worked” excuses nothing. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/102 "2004-12-10T20:11:39Z")
Oh, and since point was obviously lost on you earlier… The fact that she DID respond does not mean that she was IN A POSITION to do so. I can bark orders to my next door neighbor, but that doesn’t make it my prerogative. Jenn was _in no position_ to comment on how they came up with that idea. Only Ivana was in a position to do so. Heck, Jenn didn’t even understand that concept behind the jeans wheel, and yet she decided to jump in and explain how they came up with that idea. So yeah, she COULD and DID respond to the question from the Levi’s guy, but not with any modicum of authority. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/103 "2004-12-10T20:24:22Z")
> [@LilyoftheValley](#): > > Everyone gives Jenn credit for winning the dog task . . . Must respectfully disagree here. There’s only a tiny handful of Apprentice-watchin’ Dopers who give Jenn credit for _anything_, much less leading a winning team on her appointed task. Maybe for that reason, we few who count ourselves in the Jenn camp feel more than a little vindicated seeing her advance to the final two. > [@LilyoftheValley](#): > > . . . but I think that one task showed awful judgment. As a dog owner, I have to say that clipping a dog’s nails was a horrible idea. Super-lawyer Jenn should have realized that was a lawsuit just waiting to happen. Your opinion of her idea is valid- but I’m guessing that, by extension of what you’re saying, you believe that her team likely won that week in _spite_ of her? I find that hard to believe; maybe you’re right and they got lucky avoiding any nail-clipping disasters, but Jenn was the complete engine of the team that week. She directed every aspect of what they were doing- so much so that, as I pointed out once previously, whiny Ivana actually complained that Jenn was trying to take care of _too much._ If she made any bad calls, and she very well may have, I think it’s safe to say her good calls certainly outnumbered them. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/104 "2004-12-10T21:20:53Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > She has, though. She led on the dog-grooming task and beat the other team soundly. I’d forgotten about that one. But when I was watching it, it wasn’t all that clear who the PM was. Except for Maria, everyone was working hard and pulling their weight. Was Jenn the one who was clipping doggie toenails? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/105 "2004-12-10T21:28:47Z")
Sorry about that (above) – somehow I missed a page of posts when I asked that question. I wanted to see more of the interviews. How did they do it last year? Didn’t the interviews take most of the hour? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/106 "2004-12-10T23:40:03Z")
People, people, people – I, for one, am sick to death of the “did Jenn steal credit that should have gone to Ivana?” debate – so if you can’t leave it alone, pls. put a headline on your post saying REHASH OF THE JENN-IVANA DEBATE so those of us who don’t give a shit can skip your post. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/107 "2004-12-10T23:44:25Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > People, people, people – I, for one, am sick to death of the “did Jenn steal credit that should have gone to Ivana?” debate – so if you can’t leave it alone, pls. put a headline on your post saying REHASH OF THE JENN-IVANA DEBATE so those of us who don’t give a shit can skip your post. > > Thank you. Hey, I didn’t bring it up, but it aggravates me when people say it like it’s some sort of objective, undisputed fact: “Jenn stole Ivana’s credit.” Clearly it is a point that is open to interpretation, so as long as people don’t state their opinions as facts, there’ll be nothing to argue about. People are just determined to hate Jenn, and I sure as hell ain’t gonna change their minds, but this sort of snotty arguing is, as you said, annoying. I’m done talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/108 "2004-12-11T00:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Feared. If you’re liked, people can decide they dislike you, and therefore will turn against you. If you’re feared, they’re likely to continue fearing you and therefore will continue following what you dictate. I don’t think that’s entirely true though. Some people get tired of being afraid. Besides, what people fear, they tend to hate and what they hate, they try to destroy. Besides, I doubt people in the job world would be loyal to someone they feared and would probably leave as soon as they could. What about respect? I would have prefered that. _shrugs_ ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/109 "2004-12-11T00:19:00Z")
I lifted this passage from _The Prince_ from another messageboard, so apologies if it contains any errors. > [@](#): > > …Men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails. Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. > [@Slacker](#): > > By the way - what was the car Jenn and Kelly rode in? I heard the name pronounced four or five different ways and still didn’t catch it. It was a [Maybach](http://www.autos.msn.com/browse/Maybach.aspx?src=LeftNav). I’ve heard that “My-bach” is the correct pronuncuation. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/110 "2004-12-11T01:17:32Z")
I’ve tried to like Jenn. I really have. I wanted a woman to root for. Plus, Ivana hates her–and I really want to like someone the evil Ivana hates! However, I just can’t like her. I don’t buy that she’s a dim bulb at all. I think she’s very smart. She seems to work very hard. I also think she presents and defends herself extraordinarily well. But I just can’t like her. My main issue with her is that I’ve never seen her make a decision or take a strong stand on anything. She’s very good at making sure her name is never attached to a particular choice so she can’t be blamed. She questioned Raj’s decision to convert a 4 bedroom house to a 3 bedroom one, but she didn’t really push all that hard. She did lead the dog task, but I didn’t see her make a lot of decisions there. She sort of went along when her team (was it Raj and Chris or some others?) wanted to start a second location. But she waited to make the decision until it was clear that they were pushing for it. I see her add onto others’ ideas (I tend to think the game in the Pepsi task was mostly Sandy’s initial idea and Jenn just refined it), but she’s never the ultimate source. Maybe it’s editing. But I can only go on what I see. So the character, as she’s portrayed, I just don’t like. Kelly is arrogant as all get out. But I’d rather have a manager who’s arrogant than one who avoids responsibility. Just personal preference. YMMV. I’m not sure who will win the final task. Kelly’s team doesn’t seem all that motivated to work for him. I think Elizabeth does want to do well, but I don’t think she’ll stand up to Raj and John. I doubt that Raj and John will actively try to sabatogue anything, but I don’t see them really going all out for the win or trying to help Kelly if he runs into trouble. Plus, Raj is going to be all about getting more TV time for Raj. I don’t think the rain will be a factor. It seems like a cliff hanger. Jenn’s team doesn’t seem to like her all that much either. However, I think Pamela and Chris want to succeed. Also, I think they’re excited about working with the NBA and will want to do a good job just because for them. I doubt Stacey will be a factor one way or the other. I see her grudgingly doing what she’s told. I’m pretty sure Chris Webber will show up. That seems like another cliff hanger that will amount to nothing. I wonder if Trump will bring the teams in for feedback like he did last year. If he does, I doubt either team will have great things to say about their PMs. Then we get to the ultimate boardroom. Jenn does have an advantage here. The woman can argue and defend herself much better than Kelly. She has an answer for everything. Kelly hasn’t really had the opportunity to say much in the boardroom and has never really been in the hot seat before. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/111 "2004-12-11T01:20:37Z")
Criminey! I thought I was editing my last paragraph and instead I deleted the darn thing! Crap, I did just like Jenn. I posted my thoughts on each team, but avoided making an actual prediction! I think Kelly will win. I think Trump already wants him over Jenn, and it’s his game to lose at this point. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/112 "2004-12-11T01:57:04Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > Must respectfully disagree here. There’s only a tiny handful of Apprentice-watchin’ Dopers who give Jenn credit for _anything_, much less leading a winning team on her appointed task. Maybe for that reason, we few who count ourselves in the Jenn camp feel more than a little vindicated seeing her advance to the final two. Ok, ok, I admit it – it’s the rhetorical everyone, which may or may not include anyone on this actual messageboard. Void where prohibited. Actual contents may vary. Not valid in the Dominican Republic and Canada. Do not remove this tag under penalty of law. > [@](#): > > Your opinion of her idea is valid- but I’m guessing that, by extension of what you’re saying, you believe that her team likely won that week in _spite_ of her? Not in the least. Bad gamble != harmful to winning a particular task. I think the nail clipping was very risky and had way too much potential to go wrong. It worked _this_ time, and yes she won the task, but I wouldn’t want someone who’s going to resort to something like that as my Apprentice any more than I’d want someone who’s going to resort to dropping her skirt even if it had made them win the task. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/113 "2004-12-11T02:16:18Z")
> [@zut](#): > > Wild prediction: These six people will have some major role in next week’s finale. Possibly as graders of some sort, but I’m betting on a last-minute integration of three more people into each team. I think you may very well be right. For the house renovation task, they brought back the first four people to be fired. Now they bring back the next six. (Pamela was the 5th to go, and Chris the 10th - the other four went in between.) That only leaves the most recent six as “un-resurrected.” ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/114 "2004-12-11T04:46:35Z")
What if they do a Survivor-esque finale, where they bring in the last 6 to be fired and ask them to vote either Jenn or Kelly off the island. How will that go? Ivana votes off Jenn Kevin votes off Jenn Sandy … not sure. She might hold that last boardroom against Jenn, but I don’t think she likes Kelly either. Andy votes off Kelly Wes … not sure. He flew under my radar totally. Maria … not sure. I think she and Jenn actually got along OK, not sure about how she felt about Kelly. I think she’d vote against Kelly, but no guarantees. Predictions? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/115 "2004-12-11T05:00:04Z")
Oh, Sandy would never, _ever_ vote for Jenn. Kelly gets her vote if death is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/116 "2004-12-11T05:55:13Z")
Out of pure curiosity, the first year’s winner, Bill…Is there any proof he is actually working doing actual work with Trump’s company or is he just a tool? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/117 "2004-12-11T20:55:22Z")
One of the things that struck me as odd was how Donald kept reiterating that they were chosen out of millions of applicants. Was this a fact, or hyperbole? I have a hard time believing this as fact. Although, he did not say “applicants [for this job]”, so maybe he is twisting some numbers around? Like claiming the numbers on a job web site from which some applicants were taken? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/118 "2004-12-11T21:31:07Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > One of the things that struck me as odd was how Donald kept reiterating that they were chosen out of millions of applicants. Was this a fact, or hyperbole? I have a hard time believing this as fact. > > Although, he did not say “applicants [for this job]”, so maybe he is twisting some numbers around? Like claiming the numbers on a job web site from which some applicants were taken? Anything that comes out of Trump’ mouth is almost by definition a hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/119 "2004-12-11T21:35:02Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Anything that comes out of Trump’ mouth is almost by definition a hyperbole. Now, now…don’t forget he _hates_ people who exaggerate. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768/120 "2004-12-13T19:17:11Z")
Apparently Dopers aren’t the only ones to find Kelly charm-free: [link](http://entertainment.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=175390). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-apprentice-12-9-04/278768.md?page=7)