# The AR-15 and the Navy Yard shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443 "2013-09-22T14:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/201 "2013-09-26T15:13:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by UPI > He tried to buy an assault rifle at a Virginia gun store but was refused, CBS News reported Wednesday. Completely true statement. CBS News had reported that on Wednesday. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Baltimore Sun > Indeed, the gun control laws in Virginia, modest though they are, may have helped prevent the tragedy from being even greater. Alexis reportedly tried to buy an AR-15 — the same kind of rifle used in Sandy Hook and elsewhere — but was denied because Virginia does not allow the sale of such weapons to buyers from other states. Also true, that was indeed “reported.” > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Bricker > The actual facts concerning the AR-15 were published September 17th. if you look at that article, you’ll see > [@](#): > > Alexis did not attempt to purchase a rifle or handgun from the store, The Washington Times has learned exclusively. If the Washington Times learned something “exclusively,” it’s not shocking or disturbing that other media outlets didn’t report the same thing. That’s what “exclusively” means. If I was a CBS reporter and had a source at the Police Department telling me one thing, I wouldn’t disregarded it because of an un-sourced “exclusive” report by an outfit like the Washington Times. That perhaps they later turned out to be right doesn’t mean it was obvious at the time. Even the National Enquirer gets stories right now and then. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/202 "2013-09-26T15:24:39Z")
Much clearer, thanks for the effort. But there is a history of media outlets using the AR15 as their poster assult weapon for promoting more gun control for law-abiding owners. There is a history of gun control laws being still be ignored by criminals. There is a history of many media outlets continuing to concentrate on demonizing firearm owners and groups like the NRA in order to promote another attempt to ban firearms from law-abiding owners and users. There is a history of media outlets ignoring that bombs were also used by many crazy/violent monsters during their mass murders. ABC has produced out right lies (aka “news” stories) confusing semi-auto and full-auto firearms. The race-baiting NBC/MSNBC repeatedly holds inanimate firearms “responsible” for the actions of mentally ill monsters who personally chose to murder others. The news-readers and editors hired/chosen to present “the news” are mostly anti-2nd, anti-firearms, anti-firearm owners. I have to consider the possibility that one of the reasons they were hired was because of their anti-right to bear arms viewpoint (or willingness to promote an anti-right to bear arms agenda). Bottom line - There should have been NO mention of an AR15 in connection with the Navy Yard debacle. None. And yet it some became “news”??? Who should bear the responsibility for making the non-existent AR15 part of the story? Who should make the effort to clear their own names for getting the story wrong? Who is saying that this yet-another-media-cockup isn’t a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/203 "2013-09-26T15:33:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Bottom line - There should have been NO mention of an AR15 in connection with the Navy Yard debacle. None. And yet it some became “news”??? Who should bear the responsibility for making the non-existent AR15 part of the story? Who should make the effort to clear their own names for getting the story wrong? Who is saying that this yet-another-media-cockup isn’t a big deal? You’re putting the blame on the wrong party. Your beef is with the cops. I can’t imagine a reporter not mentioning the AR15 when they hear this from “two senior law enforcement officials:” > [@](#): > > The suspect in the killing of 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday test-fired an AR-15 assault rifle at a Virginia gun store last week but was stopped from buying one because state law there prohibits the sale of such weapons to out-of-state buyers, according to two senior law enforcement officials. Even \*\*Bricker \*\*seems not to fault the NYT for publishing the story, but simply for not correcting it fast enough. As I pointed out earlier, it’s not clear how fast they actually knew the true facts. A story in the Washington Times certainly wouldn’t be enough to publish a correction. And, now that I dig into these articles a bit deeper, it seems that perhaps Virginia law is the reason this shooter didn’t get to buy the AR15. > [@](#): > > The owners of two gun stores in Virginia told CBS News Alexis would have been able to buy an AR-15, he just wouldn’t have gotten it right away. > > ``` > Anyone can buy the assault-style weapon in Virginia, but the dealer would have to observe the laws of the buyer’s home state. > > It appears unlikely Alexis was a Virginia resident. His last reported full-time residency was in Texas. > > If the buyer is an out-of-state resident, the dealer would then ship the weapon to the buyer’s home state where a background check would be conducted. At the time of purchase in Virginia, however, the buyer would have to show two proofs of residence with matching addresses and then a proof of citizenship. This is all according to federal law when it comes to sales of the AR-15, which are administered by the ATF. > > It is also unclear whether the owner of Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Lorton, Virginia, where Alexis tried to buy the AR-15 about 15 miles from the Navy Yard, told Alexis he was not allowed to buy an assault rifle, or whether Alexis was simply impatient and decided to buy a shotgun instead. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/204 "2013-09-26T16:28:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Even \*\*Bricker \*\*seems not to fault the NYT for publishing the story, but simply for not correcting it fast enough. As I pointed out earlier, it’s not clear how fast they actually knew the true facts. A story in the Washington Times certainly wouldn’t be enough to publish a correction. Wow. You are certainly bending over backwards to grant them every conceivable out, eh? Not only did the Washington Times publish the story, but their senior editor directly contacted the NYT that same day, providing the correct information and asking the NYT to correct their story. What’s your next tactic? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/205 "2013-09-26T16:40:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is why I like betting with actual money. I’d own your biodiesel Prius by now… Gosh, **Bricker** , you seem to have slipped quietly away from your stern refusal to engage with me. It would appear that is based mostly on your determination that you have a winning point. Oherwise, why is it that asking for a cite for your assertion that “most reporters fall squarely in the **Procrustus** school” arouses your pious refusal to debate with a hypocrite, and this one does not? From here, it looks like you don’t actually have any such proof, and ducked down a trap-door into a hidey-hole. I think so, and remain in that conviction “with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces”. But when you think you’ve got the goods, you can be quite forgiving. Well, OK, now that I am redeemed, do you, in fact have any proof for this assertion? I remind: “…most reporters fall squarely in the **Procrustus** school…”. And you may correct where I’m mistaken, but isn’t your parade of citation simply a repeat of the same citations you have already offered in your Quixotic quest to pillory the “liberal media” over a relatively puny error? I do not have a biodiesel Prius to lose. You might angle for my bicycle (Goodwill, five dollars) with my blessing, I have a vested interest in keeping you healthy. Not only is it good\* karma\*, it insures that you will be available to make fun of. You can have my dog outright, if you can assure me that you will keep him in that manner to which he has become accustomed. Which includes a beer habit of roughly a case a week. (No Coors, he is a very particular beast, and in firm solidarity with proletariat pooches worldwide). Be advised that he is scruffy, lazy and stupid, with a methane production that has aroused the attention of the EPA. He also has many less appealing characteristics. He won’t hunt. He might watch _you_ hunt, if it doesn’t involve too much exertion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/206 "2013-09-26T16:41:27Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > And, now that I dig into these articles a bit deeper, it seems that perhaps Virginia law is the reason this shooter didn’t get to buy the AR15. Nope. The provisions spoken of there are not part of Virginia law. Wrong again. Federal law, 18 USC 922, is applicable, but it also does not require shipping to his home state. Why do you keep desperately trying to make some part of it true? (Well, I know why… but I’m curious what you’ll answer.) By the way, [this Wonkette column](http://wonkette.com/529032/tyrannical-virginia-gun-law-kept-dc-shooter-from-buying-ar-15) takes the false story and uses it to make exactly the argument I suggested would be made. No sign of any corrections there, either. See how these things start to take on a life on their own? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/207 "2013-09-26T16:44:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What’s your next tactic? The story was essentially true. He wasn’t “refused” when he tried to purchase the AR15, but apparently didn’t have two IDs or didn’t want to wait to get his gun, so he decided to get something else. Thus, the VA law was effective to some degree. And BTW, do you really think the NYT would care what a senior editor at the Washington Times thinks? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/208 "2013-09-26T16:45:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gosh, **Bricker** , you seem to have slipped quietly away from your stern refusal to engage with me. It would appear that is based mostly on your determination that you have a winning point. Nope. it’s because the point of contention (“This was only the NYT…”) was raised by **Truman Burbank** , not you. You, I’ll provide supporting cites to when the cows come home. Those cows being your supporting cites to me from [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16526138&postcount=201) You had nothing, refused to admit it, and bailed with the incredibly lame excuse that you were’t going to provide cites because I didn’t deserve it. That’s my on-going answer to you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/209 "2013-09-26T16:48:19Z")
Wait a tick. You mean that _Federa_l law would have delayed the purchase but your whole beef is because that isn’t _Virginia_ law? That _can’t_ be it. Tell us that isn’t it. I cannot advise you more sincerely to avoid _Wonkette,_ as well as _Daily Kos, ThinkProgress and Talking Points Memo_. I tremble in horror at the harvest of pungent debating points you would gather if you should read those sources on a regular basis. Please, please, don’t do that! Anything but that! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/210 "2013-09-26T16:50:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > The story was essentially true. He wasn’t “refused” when he tried to purchase the AR15, but apparently didn’t have two IDs or didn’t want to wait to get his gun, so he decided to get something else. Thus, the VA law was effective to some degree. > > And BTW, do you really think the NYT would care what a senior editor at the Washington Times thinks? The NYT should certainly care enough to spend three minutes checking Virginia law. This was a factual matter – I can see the NYT sniffing dismissively at some sort of a journalistic standards argument from the far-beneath-their-mightiness Washington Times, but this was a simple factual statement easy to independently check. And the business about how he tried to buy it is also completely false. But uncorrected. And you bought it. Which goes further towards proving my point. They still report, falsely, that there was an attempt, and you believe it, hook, line, and sinker, _even though you already know they fucked up other details._ See how pervasive their little “unimportant” errors are? See how well they work? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/211 "2013-09-26T16:50:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. it’s because the point of contention (“This was only the NYT…”) was raised by **Truman Burbank** , not you. > > You, I’ll provide supporting cites to when the cows come home. Those cows being your supporting cites to me from [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16526138&postcount=201) You had nothing, refused to admit it, and bailed with the incredibly lame excuse that you were’t going to provide cites because I didn’t deserve it. That’s my on-going answer to you. Ah, I see, it only _appears_ to be convenient. Yes, of course you have a cite for “most reporters fall squarely in the Procrustus school”, you simply refuse to lower yourself to provide it. How could anyone doubt that? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/212 "2013-09-26T16:54:15Z")
The news-readers and editors hired/chosen to present “the news” are mostly anti-2nd, anti-firearms, anti-firearm owners. I have to consider the possibility that one of the reasons they were hired was because of their anti-right to bear arms viewpoint (or willingness to promote an anti-right to bear arms agenda). And I would suppose, after considering the possibility, that it is unlikely there is an industry-wide habit of consideration of the employee’s 2nd amendment beliefs is during the hiring process. Cite? For either the ‘fact’ presented in the first sentence, or the hypothesis raised in the second? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/213 "2013-09-26T16:57:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait a tick. You mean that _Federa_l law would have delayed the purchase but your whole beef is because that isn’t _Virginia_ law? That _can’t_ be it. Tell us that isn’t it. No. Federal law merely requires that the transaction be in person – that is, the buyer and the seller are face to face – and that the transfer be legal in both states. Another desperate attempt (“Please, please, let me find something true that I can hang my hat on!!”) but no dice. Federal law does not prevent such a sale either. And in fact, under federal law, both the rifle and the shotgun are treated the same: _any federal law that would have stopped the rifle sale would also stop the shotgun sale._ See 18 USC 922, as amended by Public Law 99-308. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/214 "2013-09-26T16:58:01Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > The news-readers and editors hired/chosen to present “the news” are mostly anti-2nd, anti-firearms, anti-firearm owners. I have to consider the possibility that one of the reasons they were hired was because of their anti-right to bear arms viewpoint (or willingness to promote an anti-right to bear arms agenda). > > And I would suppose, after considering the possibility, that it is unlikely there is an industry-wide habit of consideration of the employee’s 2nd amendment beliefs is during the hiring process. > > Cite? For either the ‘fact’ presented in the first sentence, or the hypothesis raised in the second? Are you going to ask us to admire the strawman before you burn it? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/215 "2013-09-26T16:59:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the business about how he tried to buy it is also completely false. > > But uncorrected. And you bought it. Which goes further towards proving my point. They still report, falsely, that there was an attempt, and you believe it, hook, line, and sinker, _even though you already know they fucked up other details._ See how pervasive their little “unimportant” errors are? See how well they work? I guess I’ll end it where we began. How do you know it’s completely false? The reports have been all over the map. It just might be that those “two senior law enforcement officials” were right after all. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/216 "2013-09-26T17:03:01Z")
[quote=“Bricker, post:208, topic:669443”] Nope. it’s because the point of contention (“This was only the NYT…”) was raised by **Truman Burbank** , not you. (snip) That was a pretty selective snip, counselor. The fuller quote was: You contend, then, that ‘the media’ (that counts, not Fox etc) didn’t correct their reporting, so, AHA, proof of an underlying agenda. Except, of course, (plenty/most/everyone but the NYT) of the media did correct their reporting of the facts as they went along (cites plentiful throughout the thread), although sometimes not specifically under a “Corrections” heading. Now you seem to be left with “well, but it was anemic”. You could uncover 5 instances of egregious misreporting/failing to adequately correct the “Virginia statute” part of the story, and I still wouldn’t concede that you had thereore established clearly the sweeping “anti-AR-15 bias” of 'the media". Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence, and all that. Even if you established that the NYTimes had such a bias, found ‘smoking gun’ documents proving the same, your larger thesis regarding “the media” would be speculative, not confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/217 "2013-09-26T17:05:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you going to ask us to admire the strawman before you burn it? Ah! This time the reason not to answer is because its a “strawman”. What a wide array of firm principles you have to stand upon, climb down from, and then stand upon again! ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/218 "2013-09-26T17:08:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you going to ask us to admire the strawman before you burn it? Are you effing _kidding_ me? I was \*directly quoting \*another poster ( **Doorhinge** ,#202), and inviting them to support their assertions, and from that you are going to accuse ME of constructing a strawman? Either you have an inability to read for comprehension, or you don’t know what a strawman is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/219 "2013-09-26T17:35:17Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Are you effing _kidding_ me? I was \*directly quoting \*another poster ( **Doorhinge** ,#202), and inviting them to support their assertions, and from that you are going to accuse ME of constructing a strawman? Either you have an inability to read for comprehension, or you don’t know what a strawman is. Or (C) – you don’t know what a quote box is, and what it’s used for. I pick (C). (But I admit that’s just me lashing out at you because I didn’t want to admit I was too dumb to recognize the fact that you were quoting.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/220 "2013-09-26T17:38:50Z")
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