# The AR-15 and the Navy Yard shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443 "2013-09-22T14:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/101 "2013-09-23T20:29:29Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > BTW, here’s Fox reporting the AR-15 under its own byline: > [Fox News Flash | Fox News](http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooter-using-ar-15-according-police) And the date and time on that article? SEP 16 2013 // 10:22AM My point, made relatively clearly above, was: > [@Bricker](#): > > But notice that that error was very quickly corrected when it became apparent, that the initial information was wrong. I can effortlessly post ten links here to prominent corrections making it clear that only one shooter was involved. > > The efforts to correct the AR-15 reporting, in contrast, are quite thin. Anemic, even. I didn’t, and don’t now, claim that the media fabricated the claim. It was made, no question about it, and those claims were then reported correctly. My point was the efforts to correct the error after it became apparent were quite thin. Anemic, even. You knew that, because I said it above. Yet you posted a “rebuttal” that shows Fox News from the day of the shooting – in fact within two hours of the shooting, at a time when the shooter’s death had not yet been confirmed. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/102 "2013-09-23T21:17:39Z")
This whole thread reminds me of the gun supporters version of the lefties’ [Project Censored.](http://www.projectcensored.org/) “Sure, there was a few news stories about this one thing that I’m really worked up about… But it should have been in every newspaper because its such a big deal to me, and it wasn’t! Therefore there’s a [left wing/corporate America] conspiracy to silence the coverage on this issue in order to bend the electorate to a point of view that I hate!” Uhh, yeah. That must be it. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/103 "2013-09-23T22:17:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the date and time on that article? > > SEP 16 2013 // 10:22AM > > My point, made relatively clearly above, was: > > I didn’t, and don’t now, claim that the media fabricated the claim. It was made, no question about it, and those claims were then reported correctly. My point was the efforts to correct the error after it became apparent were quite thin. Anemic, even. > > You knew that, because I said it above. > > Yet you posted a “rebuttal” that shows Fox News from the day of the shooting – in fact within two hours of the shooting, at a time when the shooter’s death had not yet been confirmed. > > Why? Because your thesis also seems to be that the lack of correction betrays a bias in the media, and you seemed to be hand-waving away the fact that Fox behaved in exactly the same way (“it was an AP byline”). If the media’s reporting betrays their bias, are you claiming that Fox shares AP’s bias, and if not, what is your evidence. Actually, most your evidence consists of mindreading anyway. So, how quickly did Fox correct the AR-15 report, compared to AP? Much more quickly? Who issued the first correction? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/104 "2013-09-23T22:40:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This whole thread reminds me of the gun supporters version of the lefties’ [Project Censored.](http://www.projectcensored.org/) > “Sure, there was a few news stories about this one thing that I’m really worked up about… But it should have been in every newspaper because its such a big deal to me, and it wasn’t! Therefore there’s a [left wing/corporate America] conspiracy to silence the coverage on this issue in order to bend the electorate to a point of view that I hate!” > > Uhh, yeah. That must be it. And yet again I see you rebut the existence of a conspiracy, even though I explicitly said that I did not believe a conspiracy was in play. That’s pretty much the definition of a straw-man argument, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/105 "2013-09-23T22:42:38Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Because your thesis also seems to be that the lack of correction betrays a bias in the media, and you seemed to be hand-waving away the fact that Fox behaved in exactly the same way (“it was an AP byline”). If the media’s reporting betrays their bias, are you claiming that Fox shares AP’s bias, and if not, what is your evidence. Actually, most your evidence consists of mindreading anyway. So, how quickly did Fox correct the AR-15 report, compared to AP? Much more quickly? Who issued the first correction? Both Fox and the Washington Times issued clear, unambiguous corrections before any other sources I’m aware of. In addition, one Washington Times editor contacted the New York Times directly to inform them of their error and still saw no action for more than a day. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/106 "2013-09-23T23:05:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And yet again I see you rebut the existence of a conspiracy, even though I explicitly said that I did not believe a conspiracy was in play. > > That’s pretty much the definition of a straw-man argument, isn’t it? Then, would you mind telling us again what your argument was? The “media” influenced the way “liberals” think about AR-15s? Or the “liberals” have influenced the “media?” Or was it the “media” shouldn’t have quoted the police? Or the NYT’s should have issued a faster correction? What \*was \*the purpose of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/107 "2013-09-23T23:36:48Z")
Usually I’m lazy, but I did some of my own googling. I found this as AP’s first correction: [http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_NAVY\_YARD\_SHOOTING\_WEAPONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_YARD_SHOOTING_WEAPONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) The dateline on this article is 9/17 at 3:28pm. Earliest Fox correction I could find: [http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/23448922/13-killed-in-washington-navy-yard-shooting-rampage](http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/23448922/13-killed-in-washington-navy-yard-shooting-rampage) The dateline on this article is 9/18 at 12:54pm. I believe you may have been misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/108 "2013-09-24T00:05:47Z")
So is the new thesis here that the NYT slow-walked its correction by a couple of days out of a desire to have AR-15’s banned? IOW, you’re satisfied that the initial misreporting was not the result of bias? Or do you need more evidence of who the sources were and which outlets offered the reports? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/109 "2013-09-24T00:40:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In addition, one Washington Times editor contacted the New York Times directly to inform them of their error and still saw no action for more than a day. Whoa what? Is that SOP for newspaper editors? They must take fact checking very seriously, unless they have a hard-on for defending the AR-15. [Let’s check.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/20/new-york-times-corrects-ar-15-navy-yard-story-stil/) > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, I wrote that the Times was part of the widespread effort in the liberal media to tie the AR-15 rifle to the mass murder of 12 innocent people in Washington on Monday. > [@](#): > > That detail didn’t stop most in the liberal media. > [@](#): > > The left-wing media has done everything it could to demonize the weapon in order to build support for a federal “assault weapon” ban. Yes Bricker, thank you for leading us to the paragon of unbiased journalistic integrity that is the Washington Times. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/110 "2013-09-24T01:04:59Z")
NY Times, dated 9/17: > **[Suspect’s Past Fell Just Short of Raising Alarm (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/washington-navy-yard-shootings.html?pagewanted=2&ref=us&_r=0)** > > Aaron Alexis, who the police say killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard, had a history of mental health problems and firearm arrests that fell below a level that would have raised red flags. Money quote: Law enforcement officials on Tuesday provided new details about the shooting. They said that in addition to the shotgun Mr. Alexis was carrying, he used a .45-caliber handgun that he may have picked up once inside the Navy base. So, **Bricker** , what was the source of your information? Can’t be too careful about your sources, ya know! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/111 "2013-09-24T01:54:15Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > NY Times, dated 9/17: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/washington-navy-yard-shootings.html?pagewanted=2&ref=us&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/washington-navy-yard-shootings.html?pagewanted=2&ref=us&_r=0) > > Money quote: > Law enforcement officials on Tuesday provided new details about the shooting. They said that in addition to the shotgun Mr. Alexis was carrying, he used a .45-caliber handgun that he may have picked up once inside the Navy base. > > So, **Bricker** , what was the source of your information? Can’t be too careful about your sources, ya know! The source of my information was the New York Times. I have no idea why you’re linking to those pieces, though, which show the correction about the weapon used in the attack, but have nothing to do with the error I highlighted earlier in the thread: the claim that the shooter tried to buy an AR-15 rifle but was stymied by Virginia law. Is there some reason you’re studiously ignoring that? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/112 "2013-09-24T02:03:24Z")
[quote=“Bricker, post:1, topic:669443”] Without checking first… Did the Navy Yard shooter use an automatic weapon? Did he use an AR-15? Did he try to buy one? . . . . . . It’s my guess that many, if not most, people will be left with the impression that the answer to at least one of those questions is “yes.” And I contend that the reason is, at least in part, the media’s desire to tie “assault rifles” to this shooting.[/QUOTE Not ignoring that. So we see that the linked article, if you read it, answers all 3 of these questions accurately by 9/17, the same the correct info was available on AP and a day earlier than Fox. I thought you read the NY Times? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/113 "2013-09-24T02:12:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So is the new thesis here that the NYT slow-walked its correction by a couple of days out of a desire to have AR-15’s banned? > > IOW, you’re satisfied that the initial misreporting was not the result of bias? Or do you need more evidence of who the sources were and which outlets offered the reports? Never thought the initial misreporting was anything but the result of genuine confusion. So the old thesis, the original thesis, is still operative. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/114 "2013-09-24T02:16:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Never thought the initial misreporting was anything but the result of genuine confusion. > > So the old thesis, the original thesis, is still operative. I think that’s a little hard to reconcile with the implications of your prior posts, but you’re certainly free to tell us what your thesis is. But, do I have it right? Your thesis is that the NYT (and other like-minded media) slow-walked corrections by a day or two out of a desire to have AR-15’s banned? If that’s right, do you think they view delayed corrections as a powerful tool of ideological manipulation? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/115 "2013-09-24T02:16:45Z")
[quote=“Truman\_Burbank, post:112, topic:669443”] [quote=“Bricker, post:1, topic:669443”] Without checking first… Did the Navy Yard shooter use an automatic weapon? Did he use an AR-15? Did he try to buy one? . . . . . . It’s my guess that many, if not most, people will be left with the impression that the answer to at least one of those questions is “yes.” And I contend that the reason is, at least in part, the media’s desire to tie “assault rifles” to this shooting. [/QUOTE Not ignoring that. So we see that the linked article, if you read it, answers all 3 of these questions accurately by 9/17, the same the correct info was available on AP and a day earlier than Fox. I thought you read the NY Times?[/QUOTE] I did. Apparently I lack the browser plugin that allows you to read that article as answering the question of whether the shooter tried to buy an AR-15. Where does that linked article touch on that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/116 "2013-09-24T02:18:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think that’s a little hard to reconcile with the implications of your prior posts, but you’re certainly free to tell us what your thesis is. > > But, do I have it right? Your thesis is that the NYT (and other like-minded media) slow-walked corrections by a day or two out of a desire to have AR-15’s banned? > > If that’s right, do you think they view delayed corrections as a powerful tool of ideological manipulation? Yes. When the misreporting supports one narrative, delaying a correction allows the original narrative to sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/117 "2013-09-24T02:24:02Z")
> **[State Law Prevented Sale of Assault Rifle to Suspect Last Week, Officials Say...](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/state-law-stopped-gunman-from-buying-rifle-officials-say.html)** > > The suspect in the Washington Navy Yard shooting was stopped from buying an assault rifle last week by a Virginia law prohibiting such sales to out-of-state buyers, officials said. This article remains deceptive even today, with the correction from the 20th. The article claims the shooter tried to buy an Ar-15 but was stopped by Virginia law. The correction admits that there is no such virginia law - that only additional ID is needed. But it still leaves the impression that Alexis tried to buy the AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/118 "2013-09-24T02:27:44Z")
In the Washington Times editorial I linked above, Emily Miller makes the accusation that the NY Times floated the story of Aaron Alexis being prevented from buying an AR-15 in order to “give readers the impression that Alexis wanted to buy the rifle, but was only stopped by some type of gun-control law.” In response to that, I’d like to point out [the quote from the gun store](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/lawyer-for-gun-shop-alexis-did-not-try-to-buy-ar-15v) where Aaron Alexis no-kidding rented and fired an AR-15 prior to the shooting: > [@](#): > > “Mr. Alexis did not attempt to buy an AR-15 from Sharpshooters Small Arms Range,” Attorney J. Michael Slocum told TPM in an email. “He asked about purchasing a handgun (no brand specified) but he was told that he could not purchase a handgun except for delivery to his home state through another Federally-licensed firearm dealer. He then decided to purchase the Remington 870 express shotgun.” It appears that he was indeed prevented from buying a firearm due to a gun control law. It also appears he rented and fired an AR-15. And on top of that, the NYT, which in all likelihood just confused those two points in an honest mistake, issued a correction. Given all of those facts, do you think Emily Miller’s accusation carries any weight? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/119 "2013-09-24T02:45:32Z")
[quote=“Bricker, post:115, topic:669443”] > [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I did. Apparently I lack the browser plugin that allows you to read that article as answering the question of whether the shooter tried to buy an AR-15. Where does that linked article touch on that? 3 pages. Never ‘touches on’ the alleged AR-15 purchase issue. Reports the corrected version of events, omits non-facts which have been disproven. NM. You’re very fond of your narrative. Have it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443/120 "2013-09-24T05:03:00Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This should be your takeaway, Bricker. > > I have been ‘the media’ as you are ‘the law’. I have both covered politics and owned media firms (two newspapers). The assumption of some grand ‘media conspiracy’ is bullshit and you’re old enough to know that. The need to connect poor coverage - done under tremendous stress at breakneck speed - to ones political opponents is prima facie evidence of arguing in bad faith no matter which side does it. > > I contend that - given the available evidence - there is a great deal of misinformation published on any breaking story of enormous emotional weight. Instead of hoping to indict some conspiracy instead indict the attitude in the media that places too much emphasis on ‘being first’ rather than ‘being right’. The 24-hour news cycle allows for too little time and too much competition to allow for proper vetting of facts and leads us to hideous practices such as ‘unnamed sources’ or ‘some are saying’ or ‘speaking on condition of anonymity’ or even the horrid ‘just asking questions’. > > Honestly, the asking of this question, in this way is nearly identical to the snap judgement based on political positions that you seem to enjoy pointing out to others. > > Was it reported wrongly? Certainly. And those who did so should be ashamed. > Was it a conspiracy between the NYT, CNN et al? Bullshit. > Was it a sign of the collapse and ineffectiveness of for-profit American media? Damn straight. Standards have slipped since the growth of 24-hour news channels where yammering because more important than actual reporting. > > Is trying to point to a media conspiracy a sign of insecurity in one’s own positions? Possibly. My takeaway is that the “media” fails to get the story straight. Again. I’ve decided to wait 48 hours before believing what the “media” is peddling. It takes at least that long for them to get their act together. I do not believe that there is a “grand media conspiracy” among the different media outlets to distort the news. There is a competition among media outlets to be “first” rather than to be “correct”. Even you admit that. That’s what hurts the reputations of the media outlets who have somehow come to believe that getting the story correct should be of secondary importance to anything. “Any/every rumor” is not news. It’s filler designed to sell advertizing. “Any/every rumor” makes media outlets susceptible to rumor mongers, practical jokers, and liars who want to seem important or want others to appear foolish. The AR15 rumor makes every media outlet who reported it appear to be foolish. Especially the Piers Morgan-types. You say, “The 24-hour news cycle ALLOWS for too little time and too much competition TO ALLOW for proper vetting of facts”. As an average reader, I’m not impressed with the “too little time” argument. Media outlets should make/take the time to properly vet the story. THAT should be their priority. Just because the media outlets chose to do a pssst poor job for the sake of “competition” doesn’t mean their readers/listeners should chose settle for rumors and lazy reporting. Maybe media outlets should change their mottos to be - WE DON’T KNOW WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT BUT YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ar-15-and-the-navy-yard-shooting/669443.md?page=7)