# The Arab Uprisings Have Gone Too Far **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373 "2011-02-23T19:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/201 "2011-02-25T05:51:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Commissar has already stated that he does not believe that North Korea started the Korean Conflict. Sure, but the hypothetical reader may think Commissar’s wrong about that, too. IOW, when premises are clearly true, we don’t need to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/202 "2011-02-25T09:07:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Let me respond to this particular charge. Where the Hell did you get the millions statistic from anyway? Indeed, where? I am dying to know your sources - please regale me with them. > [@](#): > > I am Korean-American and … and I begin to suspect that your loyalty is Southern in origin… > [@](#): > > I will say I am thankful America saved us from totalitarian dominionism in the Korean War-remember the war was started by the commies. … and I am proven correct. Your opinion is noted; your opinion is nothing more than Yankee propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/203 "2011-02-25T09:13:28Z")
See, you can’t _buy_ comedy like that. “I feel lucky that events unfolded a certain way and I wasn’t born in a totalitarian hellhole.” “Ah-hah!!! Your emotions are hostile propaganda.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/204 "2011-02-25T09:29:16Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > … and I begin to suspect that your loyalty is Southern in origin… Did you think that a North Korean would be allowed Internet access? Or to leave the country? It says a great deal about Communism that they have historically had to put a lot of effort in keeping their own citizens from trying to escape. > [@Commissar](#): > > … and I am proven correct. Your opinion is noted; your opinion is nothing more than Yankee propaganda. South Koreans are “Yankees”? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/205 "2011-02-25T10:40:36Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Quite right. Self-identification is often quite political but no less real for all of that. Up until the 18th-19th century the Ottoman elite in no way identified themselves as “Turks.” “Turk” was a synonym for “country hick.” This of course changed with the rise of ethnic nationalism. I’ve been following this side conversation, and at this point I’ll admit that my position earlier in the thread was wrong. Learn something every day, even if it has to be pounded in with a mallet. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/206 "2011-02-25T12:48:52Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Learn something every day, even if it has to be pounded in with a mallet. The Bugs Bunny method is often effective 😛 Thanks, **Tamerlane** for the info also. This is partly why I love The Dope - even when the original OP is a lost cause, threads like this can still be used to fight ignorance on other issues. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/207 "2011-02-25T15:32:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > South Koreans are “Yankees”? ISTM that South Koreans, being Southerners, would be “Johnny Rebs.” I think my statement is every bit as logically sound as **Commissar** ’s reasoning of **Qin** ’s opinion being “nothing more than Yankee propaganda.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/208 "2011-02-25T15:48:51Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] Indeed, where? I am dying to know your sources - please regale me with them. [/QUOTE] So, let’s see. Qin Shi Huangdi asks you…well, let’s quote him for accuracy: > [@](#): > > Where the Hell did you get the millions statistic from anyway? And you turn around and ask him for sources? He asked YOU to provide sources, then you turn it around in a snide way to ask him where his sources are?? Comedy gold! > [@](#): > > … and I begin to suspect that your loyalty is Southern in origin… And I begin to suspect (ok…I suspected for quite a long time, but trying to go with the ‘mocking your words’ theme here) that you are dodging the question by yet again trying to divert the discussion into silly little side issues (like trying to say that because Qin is from SOUTH Korea that disproves anything he says and renders any request from him to you for backing up your claims moot…or something). > [@](#): > > … and I am proven correct. Your opinion is noted; your opinion is nothing more than Yankee propaganda. And I am proven correct (not hard since I actually read your post all the way through before posting, as I’m sure you did with Qin’s post…but it’s certainly more dramatic this way)!! You HAVE tried to divert the discussion to hide the fact that you have no cites to back up your claims. Well, now that this has been settled…what’s for lunch? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/209 "2011-02-25T15:53:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And I begin to suspect (ok…I suspected for quite a long time, but trying to go with the ‘mocking your words’ theme here) that you are dodging the question by yet again trying to divert the discussion into silly little side issues (like trying to say that because Qin is from SOUTH Korea that disproves anything he says and renders any request from him to you for backing up your claims moot…or something). Good catch. Yellow card on **Commissar** for _ad hominem_. > [@](#): > > Well, now that this has been settled…what’s for lunch? Kimchi? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/210 "2011-02-25T15:56:57Z")
I was thinking of crow for our good tavárishch (got that term from Panzer General btw :p). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/211 "2011-02-25T20:17:48Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > … and I begin to suspect that your loyalty is Southern in origin… Ya think? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/212 "2011-02-25T21:27:14Z")
It might have been the fact that Qin was allowed to use the internet and wasn’t risking being murdered by a God King who can change the weather with his moods. I’d think that’d be a good clue. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/213 "2011-02-25T21:31:01Z")
I don’t see why we should believe anything \*\*Commissar \*\*says. After all, he \*is \*an American. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/214 "2011-02-25T21:52:09Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Quick question Commissar. Is your opposition to the Libyan revolt strictly because you support Gaddafi, or because of some statements made by the rebels as to their vision of a new government? Both, actually. Most importantly, I fully support Colonel Gaddafi and wish to see him remain in power for the rest of his days, may they be many and pleasant. Also, I don’t want to see Libya turned into a representative democracy, for no nation deserves that fate. > [@](#): > > And a follow up - even you must admit that one of the flaws of not having any elections is that someone like Gaddafi is allowed to stick around and devolve from visionary patriot to despot. The cult of personality is a valuable tool for the revolutionary, but it becomes an agent of corruption when even great (or Dear) leaders stay around past their effectiveness. Perhaps, but curing this problem with popular elections is akin to lopping off a limb to treat a cut; it’s drastic and wholly unnecessary. The solution to despotism is to spread the power out among a group of individuals. An ideal form of government is a one-party state in which no one person is given ultimate power. Presently, I believe that the glorious People’s Republic is the perfect example of the proper form of government. > [@xtisme](#): > > Actually, he’s right…it was millions. From memory we are talking about something like 300k dead Filipinos (plus a large share of misery in our failed attempt to get in the colonialization game), at least a million Vietnamese dead (including military deaths), half a million or more Chinese (of course, they chose to get into that war themselves), at least that many or more North Korean’s (same, though giving the NK government enough food to feed their starving people probably gives us a bit of slack here), Something like 50k to…well, gods know how many Iraqi’s, same with Afghani’s, smaller numbers of Panamanian’s, Puerto Rican’s, Mexican’s and our share of what happened to the Native American’s and of course what we did to the slaves. So…perhaps as much as 2-5 million people that were killed directly through our actions. That’s pretty bad. I’m glad that you’re willing to admit that countless deaths have been caused by Yankee imperialism, my friend (too many Westerners are not). However, I think that your numbers (2-5 million) are a bit on the low side. For example, the number of Vietnamese killed alone in approximately 2 million - twice what you allege. I’m not sure whether a total tally is available, but I would imagine that it would be at least an an order of magnitude bigger than what you believe. Still, thank you for not trying to deny history. > [@Monty](#): > > Commissar has already stated that he does not believe that North Korea started the Korean Conflict. And I stand by that statement. While the North Koreans may have initiated actual armed hostilities, I do not believe that this should be the point at which we assign blame for the conflict. The only reason they had to attack was US meddling in the region and support for a puppet Southern regime. Thus, I maintain that the American Empire started the Korean War. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/215 "2011-02-25T21:59:17Z")
The biased dictator haters at the U.N. say the government crackdown has increased in intensity, with people being detained and tortured, and soldiers shooting at nonviolent demonstrators. For the sake of providing balance, I’ll say that Ghadaffi is telling people to dance and sing, and that anyone who says things we don’t want to hear is inherently unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/216 "2011-02-25T22:01:04Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Most importantly, I fully support Colonel Gaddafi and wish to see him remain in power for the rest of his days, may they be many and pleasant. Well, there seem to be plenty of job openings in his regime lately. The most recent, of course, is his long-time friend who represented him as the Libyan ambassador to the United Nations. You now have all kinds of opportunity to suppor the murderer. > [@](#): > > Also, I don’t want to see Libya turned into a representative democracy, for no nation deserves that fate. Actually, every nation deserves that fate. Those who cower, like you, at the prospect of your political views being appraised by the body politic are the only ones who decry that. As for your earlier comment regarding voter turnout: that is one method of voting, it’s a statement equivalent to agreeing to follow the expressed majority opinion. > [@](#): > > And I stand by that statement. While the North Koreans may have initiated actual armed hostilities, I do not believe that this should be the point at which we assign blame for the conflict. Actually, that’s the very definition of beginning the war. North Korea attacked South Korea. > [@](#): > > The only reason they had to attack was US meddling in the region and support for a puppet Southern regime. Thus, I maintain that the American Empire started the Korean War. Odd, then, that North Korea waited until the US forces withdrew, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/217 "2011-02-25T22:06:47Z")
I’m glad to see that Commisar is saying with his insistence that no nation should be allowed to have a representative democracy that true communists view the masses as moronic cattle who need to be kept in line. I’m also a bit amused by his implications that brown people like myself shouldn’t be allowed to choose who rules us, but should be ruled by those who’ve adapted a European philosophy(admittedly ne rejected by most Europeans). To add to that he argues that we should discount everything Quin says because of his ethnic origin. I have to say Commisar, that’s might white of you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/218 "2011-02-25T22:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] I’m glad that you’re willing to admit that countless deaths have been caused by Yankee imperialism, my friend (too many Westerners are not). However, I think that your numbers (2-5 million) are a bit on the low side. For example, the number of Vietnamese killed alone in approximately 2 million - twice what you allege. I’m not sure whether a total tally is available, but I would imagine that it would be at least an an order of magnitude bigger than what you believe. Still, thank you for not trying to deny history. [/QUOTE] I’m not the one denying history, tavárishch komissar. You are. Even doubling the figures I gave (and I admitted it was from memory…the 2 million Vietnamese dead would definitely include battlefield dead, and if we are going to count those then it you have to up the numbers of every one of those communist regimes on the list I provided earlier, since it wasn’t counting those) we aren’t even in the ball park of the numbers of their own citizens those other regimes killed, let alone external deaths (for instance, the Soviets killed upward of a million Afghani’s in their invasion of Afghanistan…let alone what they did in Poland, Hungary, East Germany, etc etc). I freely admit that America has done more than it’s share of bad things, many of which have seen people in other countries dead, maimed or in misery. That has less to do with the US being a democracy as it has with the US being a superpower, however. The one in denial here is you. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/219 "2011-02-25T23:05:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I freely admit that America has done more than it’s share of bad things, many of which have seen people in other countries dead, maimed or in misery. That has less to do with the US being a democracy as it has with the US being a superpower, however. More to the point, even if democracy was bad and the USA evil, that doesn’t make Communism good. I’m reminded of the people who argue for religion by bashing science or scientists. “Darwin was a bad man! Therefore God is real!” It isn’t enough to argue against something for it to be good or true. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/220 "2011-02-25T23:10:15Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] More to the point, even if democracy was bad and the USA evil, that doesn’t make Communism good. [/QUOTE] Exactly. To me this is similar to the way some people look at the US or democracy. They don’t want to look at the bad parts, and instead focus on ONLY the bad things that others have done. The OP is just the opposite. He dwells on just the bad things that America has done (as if we are the only representative of ‘democracy’..well, except when he tries to make Nazi Germany an extension of democracy since it arose from a failed one), but closes his eyes and tries to deny what his own (supposed) hero’s are or did/do. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=12)