# The Arab Uprisings Have Gone Too Far **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373 "2011-02-23T19:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/41 "2011-02-23T22:03:16Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > This is war, and the Colonel must win at (almost) any costs. Quite frankly, the ends are far more significant than the means. So, what are the consequences if Qaddafi does not win, and ends up swinging from a lamppost like Mussolini? Libya is a tiny nation of 6 million people, and is a sideshow compared to Egypt. It ain’t like Qaddafi has been inspiring anyone anywhere in the world in the last 30 years, except you. So if this pan-African pan-Arab anti-Western socialist dictator gets deposed, or hangs on to power, so what? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/42 "2011-02-23T22:09:07Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > At the outset, I must point out that you are perpetuating an unsubstantiated rumor, my friend. Nevertheless, let us assume that you are correct, and that foreign mercenaries have in fact been hired… I still fail to emphasize with your outrage. > > “It doesn’t matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.” > > - Deng Xiaoping > > This is no time to get one’s pants in a knot over a minor ideological issue. Not when human lives and the future of the entire Arab world are at stake, anyway. This is war, and the Colonel must win at (almost) any costs. Quite frankly, the ends are far more significant than the means. First of all, it is _not_ an unsubstantiated rumour; it has been reported by many, many eyewitnesses, and there was actually one of them who died and (his body) was filmed with his foreign passport. (From Niger, I think.) As to the second part, I lol’ed. What precisely are the ends? Keeping someone in power who thinks it’s fine to kill his own people “like rats”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/43 "2011-02-23T22:12:24Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > What precisely are the ends? Keeping someone in power who thinks it’s fine to kill his own people “like rats”? US bad. Anti-US good. I think that pretty much sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/44 "2011-02-23T22:14:08Z")
I know this is a pointless exercise in futility, as **Commissar** has shown he has no interest in educating himself, or learning anything that goes against his deeply held preconceived notions. The body politic, in the form of ministers, ambassadors, and government officials are decrying the violence and tactics used by Khaddafi. So those that are in the know, those that are most familiar with the situation, are siding with those protesters. That should tell you something. But then, anyone who would support someone who orders the machinegunning of innocent women and children doesn’t see any problem with this, do they? Anything to keep power out of the hands of the ignorant proles, right **Commissar**? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/45 "2011-02-23T22:15:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > US bad. > Anti-US good. > > I think that pretty much sums it up. Well, sure, but it’s more fun to force him to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/46 "2011-02-23T22:52:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just out of curiosity, how would you react if this spread to Iran? Whereas the collapse of the Libyan government would be absolutely terrible, the fall of the Islamic Republic would be nothing short of catastrophic. Iran is a magnificent bulwark against Western imperialism in the region, and has played that role marvelously for decades. I shudder to think what would happen if it was brought down and preplaced by an American lapdog… Certainly, the region would be in for a new dark age as a colonial playground for Westerners. We must all hope that the Islamic Empire perseveres. > [@Lemur866](#): > > So, what are the consequences if Qaddafi does not win, and ends up swinging from a lamppost like Mussolini? > > Libya is a tiny nation of 6 million people, and is a sideshow compared to Egypt. It ain’t like Qaddafi has been inspiring anyone anywhere in the world in the last 30 years, except you. So if this pan-African pan-Arab anti-Western socialist dictator gets deposed, or hangs on to power, so what? Your view is too limited, my friend. The fact that Libya is small (in absolute terms) does not mean that what transpires within doesn’t matter in the greater scope of things. These ideas work in the aggregate, rather than on their own. Thus, by resisting Western imperialism, Libya adds its voice and its weight to all the other nation opposing said imperialism. In the Arab world, this group is so small as to be especially vulnerable to losing any more members. If the Colonel falls to the traitors, it could cement Western dominion over North Africa and the Middle East for many years to come. And then you have the point that, sans Gaddafi, both pan-Arabism and pan-Africanism will lose their greatest proponent. So, yes, the stakes are quite high here. > [@Tristan](#): > > But then, anyone who would support someone who orders the machinegunning of innocent women and children doesn’t see any problem with this, do they? Anything to keep power out of the hands of the ignorant proles, right **Commissar**? Oh, come on! A bit melodramatic, don’t you think? I like how we went from “some people die in battles with government forces” to “unarmed protestors gunned down by soldiers” to “they’re machine-gunning women and children!!!” Um, no, no they’re not. Also, for the record, I do not condone the needless killing of women, children, or any other civilians, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/47 "2011-02-23T23:00:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > they’re machine-gunning women and children!!!” Um, no, no they’re not. Standard fact checking: Yes, yes they are. [ > [@](#): > > Libyan troops have opened fire with machine-guns and large-calibre weapons on anti-government protesters in the second city Benghazi, witnesses say. ]([Libya protests: Reports of intense Benghazi violence - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12516156)) [ > [@](#): > > The Times newspaper said Wednesday it had footage of severely wounded and dead protesters in a Libyan hospital which proved that heavy weapons were being used to crush the uprising. > > Shocking footage of corpses with bodies blasted off and patients with almost completely severed torsos provided “incontrovertible evidence” > […] > The images were taken at a hospital in Benghazi, the eastern Libyan city which was taken over by anti-regime groups on Monday after a bloody battle. > > Veteran strongman Moamer Kadhafi Tuesday warned he would purge the North African country “house by house” and “inch by inch” if protests continued. ]([Yahoo is part of the Yahoo family of brands.](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20110223/tuk-gruesome-footage-proves-libya-using-a7ad41d.html)) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/48 "2011-02-23T23:05:24Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > has shown he has no interest in educating himself, or learning anything that goes against his deeply held preconceived notions. I think that “deeply held preconceived notions” is giving a presumption credit that probably will not hold up in the long run. As in revolutions, tragedy, farce. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/49 "2011-02-23T23:52:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Also, for the record, I do not condone the needless killing of women, children, or any other civilians, for that matter. You have stated on this board in numerous threads your admiration and respect for the PRC, a nation that will force abortions on women. You support North Korea, a nation whose existence is insured by the threatened destruction of Seoul, in which millions of women, children, and civiliians live. Both nations have starved to death untold numbers of their people in various times. And of course, you think that the Soviet Union was the greatest thing since sliced Vodka, a nation founded on the blood of innocents, slaughtered to further a revolution that put madmen in charge. Madmen who killed millions of innocent men women and children to maintain that hold. You support the killing of innocent people. You support Khaddafi’s right to use aircraft to strafe protests, to his use of mercenary forces who have been shooting at random passerbys in the streets (according to eye witness reports). You think murder is just fine, as long as it’s someone you approve of doing it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/50 "2011-02-24T00:04:34Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Whereas the collapse of the Libyan government would be absolutely terrible, the fall of the Islamic Republic would be nothing short of catastrophic. Iran is a magnificent bulwark against Western imperialism in the region, and has played that role marvelously for decades. I shudder to think what would happen if it was brought down and preplaced by an American lapdog… Certainly, the region would be in for a new dark age as a colonial playground for Westerners. We must all hope that the Islamic Empire perseveres. You realize the Islamic Republic is fiercely anti-American, but also fiercely anti-Communist? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/51 "2011-02-24T00:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] Whereas the collapse of the Libyan government would be absolutely terrible, the fall of the Islamic Republic would be nothing short of catastrophic. Iran is a magnificent bulwark against Western imperialism in the region, and has played that role marvelously for decades. I shudder to think what would happen if it was brought down and preplaced by an American lapdog… Certainly, the region would be in for a new dark age as a colonial playground for Westerners. We must all hope that the Islamic Empire perseveres. [/QUOTE] ‘We’ being you and the theocratic thugs with their boots on the necks of the Iranian people, right? Out of curiosity (perverse no doubt), why do you suppose that Libya and Iran are having wide spread protests that need to be put down ruthlessly? I mean, if it’s all goodness and light, why is it happening? And why does the two governments have to resort to such harsh measures to keep their people in line? Or do you deny that such protests are in fact happening, and that Libya is in what is basically a state of full out rebellion right now, and Iran is only holding off a similar fate because they are a bit more organized and perhaps more ruthless (well, and they have a military that isn’t completely riddled with corruption and graft, and isn’t just about completely worthless)? -XT ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/52 "2011-02-24T00:25:56Z")
For just $4.95, I get more entertainment and comedy on the Dope than Hollywood has produced all year. Go on, **Commissar** …tell another one. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/53 "2011-02-24T00:26:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really? You’re going to call me out on poking fun at the OP while giving him the back-handed complement in the same post? :dubious: Back-handed complements (sic) are allowed in GD. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/54 "2011-02-24T00:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Go on, Commissar…tell another one. [/QUOTE] I always thought it was ‘pull the other one’, which is pretty apt considering the OP and the subject. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/55 "2011-02-24T00:53:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Standard fact checking: Yes, yes they are. > > [ > > [url=[Yahoo is part of the Yahoo family of brands.](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20110223/tuk-gruesome-footage-proves-libya-using-a7ad41d.html)]]([Libya protests: Reports of intense Benghazi violence - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12516156)) The articles you link to reference statements by anti-Gaddafi activists. So your definition of “fact” is “unsupported hearsay that happens to fit my views?” Interesting. The first article you linked to contains the following statement: “Reports are difficult to verify as Libyan authorities have not allowed foreign journalists into the country…” That’s not a meaningless verbosity, you know. Perhaps you should hold off a bit on making unsubstantiated assertions… > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You realize the Islamic Republic is fiercely anti-American, but also fiercely anti-Communist? Of course, but what of it? The world is not sufficiently black and white to enable us to engage in easy categorizing. Iran may not share my economic views, but that hardly matters when it comes to the fact that Iran is one of the view nations in the Muslim world actively opposing Yankee imperialism. We must not let the perfect stand in the way of the good. > [@xtisme](#): > > Out of curiosity (perverse no doubt), why do you suppose that Libya and Iran are having wide spread protests that need to be put down ruthlessly? I mean, if it’s all goodness and light, why is it happening? And why does the two governments have to resort to such harsh measures to keep their people in line? I rather suspect that it boils down to the success of viral Western propaganda. Say what you will about them, but the US and its EU poodles have certainly mastered this delicate art-form. Much of the youth of the world has consequently been convinced that representative democracy is a desirable political model, rather than an embodiment of mob rule that must be avoided at all costs. This is, perhaps, unsurprising: one would expect that unruly mobs would favor unruly mob politics. Nevertheless, a strong and sufficiently popular government can withstand any propaganda directed against it by its enemies. For example, the People’s Republic has done a wonderful job of suppressing the traitors that would see it destroyed… Now, it is up to Libya and Iran to prove that they are likewise capable of protecting themselves against the brainwashed herds. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/56 "2011-02-24T00:53:41Z")
Funniest Joke OP ever, sarcasm is good in this one. Seriously mate, WTF are you on? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/57 "2011-02-24T01:07:39Z")
Commissar, I don’t know if you’re serious or wooshing everybody but Gaddafi is hiring supporters. This is your chance to make money on your convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/58 "2011-02-24T01:08:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Or do you deny that such protests are in fact happening, and that Libya is in what is basically a state of full out rebellion right now, and Iran is only holding off a similar fate because they are a bit more organized and perhaps more ruthless (well, and they have a military that isn’t completely riddled with corruption and graft, and isn’t just about completely worthless)? From what we are hearing of aircraft strafing crowds and so forth, I don’t think a lack of ruthlessness is a problem for Gaddafi and friends. > [@Magiver](#): > > Commissar, I don’t know if you’re serious or wooshing everybody but Gaddafi is hiring supporters. This is your chance to make money on your convictions. But wouldn’t that be a terribly capitalistic thing to do? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/59 "2011-02-24T01:11:35Z")
Commissar: If you’re a man who thinks “end justifies the means” what is wrong with American imperialism? Pro-American governments are less oppressive and murderous against citizens than either Communist or anti-Western Islamist regimes and American world hegemony may bring peace to this war-torn world. So how about that? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/60 "2011-02-24T01:19:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really? You’re going to call me out on poking fun at the OP while giving him the back-handed complement in the same post? :dubious: I just told you to back off a bit on comments about the poster. My comment was directed toward his posts, while noting that he had done nothing for which he should be removed from the board. (And if you don’t find **Commissar** ’s posts humorous, don’t laugh.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=4)