# The Arab Uprisings Have Gone Too Far **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373 "2011-02-23T19:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/101 "2011-02-24T04:17:00Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Related “Arabized” ethnicities. :rolleyes: That’s nonsense. Egyptians, Berbers, etc. are not Arabs. Arabs are folks whose first language is Arabic, full stop. If you want to differentiate between folks from the Arabian penninsula and the rest of the Arab world, I suppose you could the slightly archaic “Arabian.” But Arab is widely accepted as the term used for Arabic-speakers and there it pretty much rests\*. However even if you _were_ arguing bloodlines, unlike many/most non-Arabian Arab populations a fair number of Libyan Arabs in particular are likely descended from Bedouin Arabs who migrated into the region from the Arabian penninsula ( with a helping hand from the Fatimids, interested in punishing their rebellious former vassals ) - most notably the [Banu Hilal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hilal) and [Banu Suleim](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Sulaym) confederacies. - It is of course not that clear-cut and simple. There are self-identified “Arabs” in Afghanistan that have largely lost Arabic as a language and you could probably find Arabic-as-first-language-speakers who disdain the designation of Arab, like perhaps some Arabized Berbers. But as a general definition it is the most reasonable. ETA: Oh yeah and posters who take the names of bloody-handed tyrants are some…kind…of badness. Really, really bad :p. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/102 "2011-02-24T04:34:55Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Arabs are folks whose first language is Arabic, full stop. While I have a lot of faith and trust in your posts, and regard you as a good source in general, I’m not sure I buy this. Egyptians do not, in general, self-identify as Arabs. And so on and so forth. > [@](#): > > ETA: Oh yeah and posters who take the names of bloody-handed tyrants are some…kind…of badness. Really, really bad :p. 😃 If you’d started out with the username **Curtis LeMay** and posted as **Qin** has and does, I’d react the same way to you. You didn’t, you haven’t, and you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/103 "2011-02-24T04:39:08Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Huh? I was belatedly agreeing with a mod note that I should not continue discussion of an Emperor of China. What did you think I was agreeing with? Today’s \*New York Times \*editorial on Qaddafi. Re-read my first post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/104 "2011-02-24T04:56:40Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Today’s \*New York Times \*editorial on Qaddafi. Re-read my first post in this thread. _sigh_ Your first post in this thread quoted me saying “OK. I’ll do that too,” in response to a mod note. You responded, “Let the debate begin.” If that sentence was regarding the link to the NYT editorial, then there was no reason to include my quote, and, I’ve got to say, that was some seriously sloppy writing. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/105 "2011-02-24T05:00:16Z")
What does the OP think of Mr. Islam Karimov a former Communist but an ally of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/106 "2011-02-24T05:01:54Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > _sigh_ > > Your first post in this thread quoted me saying “OK. I’ll do that too,” in response to a mod note. You responded, “Let the debate begin.” If that sentence was regarding the link to the NYT editorial, then there was no reason to include my quote, and, I’ve got to say, that was some seriously sloppy writing. “return to the main topic of the thread” as **Marley23** said. Please read my entire first post, all the way through. hint: **GIGObuster** and **me** gave you two sources. The two sources are relevant to the topic of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/107 "2011-02-24T05:07:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > “return to the main topic of the thread” as **Marley23** said. > > Please read my entire first post, all the way through. hint: > **GIGObuster** and **me** gave you two sources. > > The two sources are relevant to the topic of the thread. At this point, I’ll assume that we’re talking past each other, and neither of us can grasp the others point. I give, and I’m perfectly happy to pretend that the past few posts didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/108 "2011-02-24T05:16:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Am I the only one that finds this entirely revolting and unacceptable? > > No. I heard Gadhafi is a trifle peeved about the whole thing, too. And Gadhafi has 8 sons who are probably not happy. And Hugo Chavez seems to be fan of the Green Book. That makes eleven… anyone think we can get an even dozen? No, me neither. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/109 "2011-02-24T05:29:09Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Problem is, he’s on record in one of those other two previously linked threads as not knowing how to get out of the US. > > Unlike the rest of us Americans, who would, you know, buy a plane, bus, train, or boat ticket, grab our passports, and head out. The only officials who would think to stop you are the customs agents of the country you’re going too. No one here cares if you leave. That’s hilarious, especially when you couple it with his claims to have actually visted Belarus after becoming a US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/110 "2011-02-24T07:33:39Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > **spark 240** - > > Yes, I still stand by my position that the outcome of popular struggles determines whether or not a given cause had sufficient public support. A struggle is a conflict between two or more opposing viewpoints; surely I am entitled to take sides like everyone else? > > We do not yet know what will happen in this situation. I hope that the traitors do not represent the will of the Libyan people; if they do not, then their uprising will fail. If they lack popular support, then the only way for them to win will be if the government shows undue restraint in dealing with them. The funny thing is that it is only the pro-American governments that seem to show “undue restraint” in dealing with protesters. Qaddafi has opened fire on his own people at a level that Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarek have not. Don’t you find it hard to defend that sort of action or id it irrelevant because you feel you know what is good for others with so much certainty that you think opening fire on your own people to suppress the will of the people (for their own good of course) is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/111 "2011-02-24T07:35:48Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Isn’t it cute how he has all these different outfits for them? Qadaffi has the biggest dress-up fetish of any modern dictator. I know the stereotype of the flamboyantly/weirdly dressed dictator, but Qadaffi must be the only one left alive. It was his only redeeming quality. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/112 "2011-02-24T08:05:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The funny thing is that it is only the pro-American governments that seem to show “undue restraint” in dealing with protesters. Qaddafi has opened fire on his own people at a level that Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarek have not. Don’t you find it hard to defend that sort of action or id it irrelevant because you feel you know what is good for others with so much certainty that you think opening fire on your own people to suppress the will of the people (for their own good of course) is acceptable? I’m afraid that I cannot accept your assertion that pro-American governments tend to be less bloody in crushing dissent. Moreover, it is unfair to make direct comparisons between the situation in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya. The first two featured largely peaceful mass protests that ground down the governments under the inexorable will of the people. The third involves an all-out civil war in which armed traitors are attempting to wrest power away at gunpoint. I maintain that this situation justifies harsher counter-measures; those that live by the sword shall die by the sword. So, no, I do no find it difficult at all to support the Colonel’s decisions to this point. I fully expect any government to meet armed insurrection with military force. For comparative purposes, I remind you of what happened the last time that half of the US tried to secede… It wasn’t all flowers and group hugs, that’s for certain. The Libyan government is doing what any government would do in its position, and I fully support its right to do so. If the rebels truly represent the will of the people, then they will have no difficulties trumping the government’s countermeasures. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/113 "2011-02-24T08:39:59Z")
Standard Commissar’s Claims fact checking: _Ayieeee, armed, crazed democracy advocates violently opposing the benign and benevolent regime of (fabulously dressed) Quadaffi, noble security forces must defend themselves!!!_ [ > [@](#): > > Libyan government intensifies crackdown on protesters as security forces mow down mourners trying to bury victims ]([Gadhafi's forces kill hundreds during Libyan protests Sunday - Salon.com](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/02/20/af_libya_protests_1)) Of course, as Commissar’s apologia for attrocity is hard to keep straight (what with it being made up of rationalizations, non-facts and non-sense), I’m not sure he’s figured out yet how a brutal dictator ruling without the consent of the people, [engaging in the worst types of capitalistic, materialist cronyism](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/wikileaks-gadhafi-family-_n_827042.html) and using overwhelming lethal force against protesters who want the masses’ interests to be seen to, is the one who has the right to lethal force. Including engaging in the capitalistic enterprise of actually contracting out the use of force to mercenaries in order to brutalize the people. [But, then again…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13500633&postcount=40) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/114 "2011-02-24T09:16:41Z")
I think we’ve found something other than the Westborough Baptist Church that pretty much all board members, whether left or right, can agree on. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/115 "2011-02-24T09:17:57Z")
Truly, Commissar is a uniter, not a divider. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/116 "2011-02-24T09:38:42Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > … > > Egyptians do not, in general, self-identify as Arabs. And so on and so forth. > . Since when? Every Egyptian I have ever met in the UK has self identified as an Arab, although sometimes the Coptics ones put some nuances on that. The country even calls itself the Arab Republic of Egypt, which does not seem to be an appellation put in question by the recent events. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/117 "2011-02-24T09:55:00Z")
That **Vegimite Lover** guy we had was very adamant about how Egyptians aren’t Arabs and they just called themselves the Arab Republic of Egypt because they hated Israel and wanted to show solidarity. Then again, he wasn’t exactly a font of factual information. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/118 "2011-02-24T11:12:58Z")
Shrug. All I can report is every Egyptian I have ever encountered self-identified as Egyptian and Arab… I suppose it all depends on what people mean by Arab. It’s a no brainer that they’re not actually descended from the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/119 "2011-02-24T11:26:32Z")
They _are_ descended from the Arabs. Cairo was an Arab creation and much like the conquest of the Mongols in Asia, the Arab conquest of Egypt in the 7th century saw significant genetic mixing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/120 "2011-02-24T11:45:06Z")
So, Commissar, you’re on Gaddafi’s side, huh? Well, then, you should be able to justify the bombing of an airliner over Lockerbie, right? Let’s hear it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=7)