# The Arab Uprisings Have Gone Too Far **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373 "2011-02-23T19:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/121 "2011-02-24T11:46:58Z")
Now, this thread is getting funnier all the times… > [@Commissar](#): > > …It is common for Westerners to conflate popular will with voting, but I’m afraid that the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Why would you possibly assume that allowing people to vote somehow means that the winner represents the true will of the voters? What about the generally poor voter turnout and the various restrictions that ultimately mean that, in almost all elections, the “winners” are chosen by less than 50% of the nation’s citizenry?.. So, some dictatorship is better than a democratic system and way-way better than actually letting people choose by voting. Now, this I did not know. Thank you for enlighten me - my friend. But it makes perfect sense, since when the populus votes, the leader won’t get away with shooting the people in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/122 "2011-02-24T11:55:06Z")
So… how DOES this soon-to-be-ex dictator spell his name? In that article about his virgin bodyguards the tags at the bottom show _thirty two_ ways to spell it. His name is like the Hannukkkaaahh of dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/123 "2011-02-24T11:59:20Z")
He spells it correctly, of course, in Arabic: معمر القذافي ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/124 "2011-02-24T11:59:35Z")
> [@EvilTOJ](#): > > So… how DOES this soon-to-be-ex dictator spell his name? As I mentioned in the Pit thread, there’s an old Straight Dope column on the matter: [How are you supposed to spell Muammar Gaddafi/Khadafy/Qadhafi?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/513/how-are-you-supposed-to-spell-muammar-gaddafi-khadafy-qadhafi) > [@](#): > > For the record, here’s the official Library of Congress rundown on how to spell ol’ whatsisname: (1) Muammar Qaddafi, (2) Mo’ammar Gadhafi, (3) Muammar Kaddafi, (4) Muammar Qadhafi, (5) Moammar El Kadhafi, (6) Muammar Gadafi, (7) Mu’ammar al-Qadafi, (8) Moamer El Kazzafi, (9) Moamar al-Gaddafi, (10) Mu’ammar Al Qathafi, (11) Muammar Al Qathafi, (12) Mo’ammar el-Gadhafi, (13) Moamar El Kadhafi, (14) Muammar al-Qadhafi, (15) Mu’ammar al-Qadhdhafi, (16) Mu’ammar Qadafi, (17) Moamar Gaddafi, (18) Mu’ammar Qadhdhafi, (19) Muammar Khaddafi, (20) Muammar al-Khaddafi, (21) Mu’amar al-Kadafi, (22) Muammar Ghaddafy, (23) Muammar Ghadafi, (24) Muammar Ghaddafi, (25) Muamar Kaddafi, (26) Muammar Quathafi, (27) Muammar Gheddafi, (28) Muamar Al-Kaddafi, (29) Moammar Khadafy, (30) Moammar Qudhafi, (31) Mu’ammar al-Qaddafi, (32) Mulazim Awwal Mu’ammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/125 "2011-02-24T12:03:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > They _are_ descended from the Arabs. Cairo was an Arab creation and much like the conquest of the Mongols in Asia, the Arab conquest of Egypt in the 7th century saw significant genetic mixing. Yes, I know, but not every Egyptian is, that is for sure (e.g. Copts are unlikely to have). But this is all a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/126 "2011-02-24T13:25:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s also his belief that the people are too stupid to be allowed to govern themselves and that governance should be conducted by some sort of elite (read, people who think like he does) who knows what’s best. I believe the term is “dictatorship of the proletariat”. As for Gaddafi, which is my favourite spelling, he was an improvement on the previous government of Libya and for much of his reign was also less objectionable than the surrounding governments. Also, definitely not behind Lockerbie. I think of him a bit like Castro, came to power all well-intentioned and fighting against something awful, then went a bit off the rails. Ran things quite well for quite a while, although people who insist on comparing Cuba to first world economies rather than analogous nations like Haiti will object to that. Castro, though, as of yet, hasn’t triggered any armed revolutions against him and resulting civil war and slaughter of the innocent. Well, not recently anyway, and Castro always won. And, for Commissar, a couple of youtube videos which are NSFW, and not for the squeamish: https://www.youtube.com/embed/V0sjlUt6LRY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/orFSJOmfMmw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [http://www.yfrog.com/froggy.php?username=LibyanThinker](http://www.yfrog.com/froggy.php?username=LibyanThinker) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/127 "2011-02-24T13:37:08Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Also, definitely not behind Lockerbie. .. [ > [@](#): > > Libya’s former justice minister has told a Swedish newspaper that Colonel Gaddafi personally ordered the Lockerbie bombing. ]([Colonel Gaddafi 'ordered Lockerbie bombing' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-12552587)) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/128 "2011-02-24T14:49:14Z")
So Commisar, _Where_ do you live? If you are such a fan of these Islamic dictatorships, why are you not living there with your US abused masses and leading protests against the US christian capitalist running dog oppressor governments? Put up or shut the fuck up. You want your governmental type to prevail, get active. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/129 "2011-02-24T14:59:35Z")
There are many reasons why I am a self-avowed socialist, and not a communist. People like Commissar are one of them. The belief that the “dictatorship of the proletariat” leads to anything more than plain old dictatorship is another one. I could understand being a die-hard supporter of the Soviet Union in the 1920’s and 30’s. Indeed, Soviet led industrialization is the main reason they could withstand Hitler’s invasion. The Czarist regime would have crumbled easily if it had still been in power. But as soon as Trotsky was assassinated by Stalin’s agents, it should have been apparent that the Communists were only concerned about their personal power, and did not give damn about the proletariat. Hell, Trotsky was probably the only Bolshevik who actually did. Socialism depends upon democracy. It is not possible without it. Tyrants like Gaddafi who subvert it for their own purposes deserve to hung from the lampposts. And those who defend such tyrants - I’ll save those sentiments for the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/130 "2011-02-24T15:00:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > He spells it correctly, of course, in Arabic: > > معمر القذافي Let’s see what I remember from high school Arabic… The first letter is a “hard K”, which is basically a K spoken from the back of the throat. It’s close to a G, but it’s still essentially a K. There are several ways of transliterating this sound; “Q” seems to be most popular. The second letter is a “hard D”. It’s like a regular D, but with the back of your tongue against your upper teeth instead of just its tip. Usually written as “DD”. The remaining letters are simply A-F-Y or A-F-I. Therefore, IMHO, the best way to write it would be “Qaddafy” or “Qaddafi”. Of course, that’s Classical Arabic. I have no idea how it would be pronounced with a Libyan accent. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/131 "2011-02-24T15:01:30Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > So Commisar, _Where_ do you live? > > If you are such a fan of these Islamic dictatorships, why are you not living there with your US abused masses and leading protests against the US christian capitalist running dog oppressor governments? > > Put up or shut the fuck up. You want your governmental type to prevail, get active. None of these questions are genuinely pertinent to the discussion. “Love it or leave it” was a stupid bumber sticker in the 1960s and it is a dumb idea, now. The points presented by Commissar are of negligible worth, but this thread can be debated on the dismantling of his ideas and purported facts without getting into attacks on his person or waving slogans around. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/132 "2011-02-24T15:01:45Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Put up or shut the fuck up. Save this stuff for the Pit thread. It doesn’t go in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/133 "2011-02-24T15:01:45Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I know this is a pointless exercise in futility, as **Commissar** has shown he has no interest in educating himself, or learning anything that goes against his deeply held preconceived notions. Now, now, now – **Commissar** is perfectly willing to go against his deeply held preconceived notions when convenient (e.g. his 180-degree flip on the legitimacy of Popular Revolution would make any of the 1930s American Communists weep with envy – I mean, a few of them actually sprained their brains a bit at paradigm-shifting without a clutch from “Hitler is the friend of the working peoples!” to “Hitler is a menace to the world!”). His ideology, such as it is, is best illustrated by [the joke I referenced on an earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13253578&postcount=240). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/134 "2011-02-24T15:06:41Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now, now, now – **Commissar** is perfectly willing to go against his deeply held preconceived notions when convenient (e.g. his 180-degree flip on the legitimacy of Popular Revolution would make any of the 1930s American Communists weep with envy – I mean, a few of them actually sprained their brains a bit at paradigm-shifting without a clutch from “Hitler is the friend of the working peoples!” to “Hitler is a menace to the world!”). Actually, the majority of 1930s Communists went the other way. The greatest loss of membership ever suffered by the U.S. Communist Party occurred when Ribbentrop and Molotov concluded their non-aggression pact. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/135 "2011-02-24T15:12:44Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now, now, now – **Commissar** is perfectly willing to go against his deeply held preconceived notions when convenient (e.g. his 180-degree flip on the legitimacy of Popular Revolution would make any of the 1930s American Communists weep with envy – I mean, a few of them actually sprained their brains a bit at paradigm-shifting without a clutch from “Hitler is the friend of the working peoples!” to “Hitler is a menace to the world!”). Ah, but it \*isn’t \*a Popular Revolution. Qaddafi was a revolutionary; therefore, the people opposing him are by neccesity _reactionaries_, which is the direct opposite. After all, if the Revolution has been going on for the past 42 years, don’t the people opposing it essentially want the Revolution to end? See - I speak Communist! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/136 "2011-02-24T15:13:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The nature of the argument is clear. Just like the whole schtick that: > > ‘Qadaffi’s thugs have definitely not machinegunned women and children who were protesting and… Wait, what? There are witness reports? Oh, and forensic evidence? Oh, and video of the forensic evidence? Well, erm… I’d only like to mention the eyewitness testimony and ignore the rest. Also, ya know, er… we really can’t say whether not protestors have been machinegunned. What’s that? What do you mean that I, myself, made a definitive statement that they had not? No, I do not see how that is relevant.’ Well, it’s nice to see that [Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf](http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/) found a new gig… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/137 "2011-02-24T15:24:36Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > And Gadhafi has 8 sons who are probably not happy. And Hugo Chavez seems to be fan of the Green Book. That makes eleven… anyone think we can get an even dozen? No, me neither. I’m sure the people running the various factions of Al Qaeda are less than thrilled that the Arab people have rejected their leadership for the next stage of their political development. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/138 "2011-02-24T15:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] I’m sure the people running the various factions of Al Qaeda are less than thrilled that the Arab people have rejected their leadership for the next stage of their political development. [/QUOTE] Actually, they are probably thrilled at this stage. They WANT all of these regimes in the region to be overthrown after all (how else can they build a united Arab fundamentalist Islamic _Sunni, cough cough_ superstate?). Depending on how it pans out in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, etc will depend if they STAY thrilled. If some or all of these places go to an Iranian style (though obviously NOT Shia’…Allah forbid!) theocracy they will be ecstatic, especially if it’s hostile to the west and less hostile to them. If, instead they get some sort of democratic system they are not going to be very happy, even if the states aren’t really secular as we would define that. They are probably taking a wait and see approach right now, gauging how things pan out, but I’m guessing that they are doing the fundamentalist Muslim equivalent of passing around glasses of champagne and doing high fives over recent events… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/139 "2011-02-24T16:12:53Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > As for Gaddafi, which is my favourite spelling, he was an improvement on the previous government of Libya and for much of his reign was also less objectionable than the surrounding governments. **Also, definitely not behind Lockerbie.** Oh really? Gadaffi’s [former justice minister](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011223213547845546.html) says he has proof Gadaffi was behind the Lockerbie bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373/140 "2011-02-24T16:24:50Z")
It’s true - he’s a hero - Gaddafi is fighting bin Laden. He is saving the world from those evil Muslim fundamentalists. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279) [http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/gaddafi-blames-bin-laden-for-chaos-2555421.html?start=3](http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/gaddafi-blames-bin-laden-for-chaos-2555421.html?start=3) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arab-uprisings-have-gone-too-far/572373.md?page=8)