# The Arkansas Executions, or More Evidence that Prison for Murderers Doesn't Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648 "2017-04-17T18:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/201 "2017-04-20T17:28:45Z")
If the official state policy in another country is that there are no homosexuals in that country, would you say that there are no homosexuals in that country? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/202 "2017-04-20T17:35:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > it probably wasn’t all that hard to break out of jail before modern times More like, in most cases jail wasn’t used as punishment at all–it was simply a way of making sure they had you around to subject you to the actual punishment. Using jail as a primary means of punishment reflects uniquely modern sensibilities about the inviolability of the individual self. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/203 "2017-04-20T17:39:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the official state policy in another country is that there are no homosexuals in that country, would you say that there are no homosexuals in that country? wow what has that to do with this issue?:eek::rolleyes::dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/204 "2017-04-20T17:41:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the official state policy in another country is that there are no homosexuals in that country, would you say that there are no homosexuals in that country? It has come to my attention that Sergeant Zale lost $300. Yeah. So? So that means that there’s a thief around here. Maybe more than one. Frank, Zale lost it gambling. I beg your pardon? Gambling, Frank. He was playing poker with us. Impossible. Gambling’s prohibited. There is no gambling in this unit. Therefore the money was stolen. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/205 "2017-04-20T18:45:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > wow what has that to do with this issue?:eek::rolleyes::dubious: I think the idea is that what the president of Iran says is just as reliable as the verdict of twelve jurors and thirty years worth of appellate judges. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/206 "2017-04-20T23:06:16Z")
They’re gonna try to execute Ledell Lee tonight. [A few details about his legal proceedings:](https://theintercept.com/2017/04/20/arkansas-fights-to-execute-two-men-without-testing-dna-evidence-that-could-exonerate-them/) > [@](#): > > His trial judge was having an affair with the prosecutor; the two would later get married. The same judge later expressed his regret at appointing a lawyer to Lee’s state habeas proceeding who showed up to court obviously intoxicated. A state prosecutor raised concerns that the attorney was slurring his words, stumbling in the courtroom, and speaking incoherently, while “introducing the same items of evidence over and over again.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/207 "2017-04-20T23:46:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Three is, however, a larger number than zero. Zero is the number of innocent lives who would have been saved if the eight murderers in the OP had been executed. I’m glad to see that you’re conceding the argument. What changed your mind? And even if we’re going to go the arithmetic route, three is still less than eight. If the eight convicts under discussion are executed, then that’s eight people who I know for sure are wrongfully killed, because any volitional killing is wrongful. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/208 "2017-04-21T00:08:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m glad to see that you’re conceding the argument. What changed your mind? > > And even if we’re going to go the arithmetic route, three is still less than eight. If the eight convicts under discussion are executed, then that’s eight people who I know for sure are wrongfully killed, because any volitional killing is wrongful. This made me think of another factor that could be considered (though it’d be nigh-impossible to measure): some murderers can be rehabilitated. Some of these rehabilitated murderers might possibly save someone’s life some day, or (more likely, perhaps) be a decent father to their children and greatly reduce the chance they grow up and kill someone. By executing all murderers, we’d be increasing the likelihood that some of their children would grow up to be murderers. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/209 "2017-04-21T00:17:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This made me think of another factor that could be considered (though it’d be nigh-impossible to measure): some murderers can be rehabilitated. Some of these rehabilitated murderers might possibly save someone’s life some day, or (more likely, perhaps) be a decent father to their children and greatly reduce the chance they grow up and kill someone. By executing all murderers, we’d be increasing the likelihood that some of their children would grow up to be murderers. That is not an intractable problem… But seriously, allowing the state the power to execute should be very carefully considered. It’s not as if the ruling classes and their enforcement arms always act morally. Civil forfeiture is an example of how easy it is for police to behave unjustly. When it comes to executions I think we don’t have sufficient safe guards in place to ensure they are appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/210 "2017-04-21T00:24:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m glad to see that you’re conceding the argument. What changed your mind? I’m assuming you’re having a bit of fun here, because it looks like a typo to me; the intention was probably to write “lost”, or a suitable synonym, in place of “saved”. Still waiting on a reply to my most recent [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20150923&postcount=199) to address the issue of “the three” and its irrelevance to the argument presented in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/211 "2017-04-21T01:21:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This made me think of another factor that could be considered (though it’d be nigh-impossible to measure): some murderers can be rehabilitated. Some of these rehabilitated murderers might possibly save someone’s life some day, or (more likely, perhaps) be a decent father to their children and greatly reduce the chance they grow up and kill someone. By executing all murderers, we’d be increasing the likelihood that some of their children would grow up to be murderers. Imagine where we can go with this chain of thought: Lots of fetuses are aborted. Some of these fetuses would be highly intelligent and a few might have gone to make groundbreaking discoveries in their selected field had they not been aborted. By aborting fetuses, we decrease the likelihood of genius. Also, how are these murderers supposed to be fathers to their children when they (convicted first degree murderers) are in prison with no chance of parole? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/212 "2017-04-21T02:50:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This made me think of another factor that could be considered (though it’d be nigh-impossible to measure): some murderers can be rehabilitated. Some of these rehabilitated murderers might possibly save someone’s life some day, or (more likely, perhaps) be a decent father to their children and greatly reduce the chance they grow up and kill someone. By executing all murderers, we’d be increasing the likelihood that some of their children would grow up to be murderers. What if Charles Manson has stumbled across a cure for all cancers, yet he’d rather take it to his grave rather than share it with a society that keeps him locked up? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/213 "2017-04-21T13:51:39Z")
They executed Ledell Lee last night. Wonder if they’ll ever do the DNA testing that might’ve exonerated him? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/214 "2017-04-21T14:40:38Z")
The ACLU and the Innocence Project both filed motions for post-conviction DNA testing. I suppose they could continue to push now that he is dead - it would good for their cause if they could find out the blood on Lee’s shoe wasn’t from the victim. If it turns out like Roger Coleman, then not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/215 "2017-04-21T15:33:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The ACLU and the Innocence Project both filed motions for post-conviction DNA testing. I suppose they could continue to push now that he is dead - it would good for their cause if they could find out the blood on Lee’s shoe wasn’t from the victim. If it turns out like Roger Coleman, then not so much. The question is really, how many roadblocks can/will the state of Arkansas throw in their way? IANAL, but my understanding is that with Lee already executed, the lawyers don’t have a client, so they lack standing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/216 "2017-04-21T15:56:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The question is really, how many roadblocks can/will the state of Arkansas throw in their way? IANAL, but my understanding is that with Lee already executed, the lawyers don’t have a client, so they lack standing. Yeah, I’m sure the state will go out of its way to prove that they screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/217 "2017-04-21T16:13:20Z")
The Coleman case was in Virginia, and the governor of that state had to order the DNA testing. Maybe that won’t work in Arkansas. [In Texas they didn’t wait until after he was dead, and it didn’t work there either.](http://nypost.com/2000/07/13/new-dna-test-backs-texas-death-row-cons-guilt/) Nor is that [the](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUgpHZ97XTAhXM6CYKHRcWBvs4ChAWCCIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chron.com%2Fnews%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston%2Farticle%2FAbbott-says-DNA-testing-confirms-Skinner-s-guilt-4037705.php&usg=AFQjCNFE_L2kYOqPyYupKNlcHf8ebtZPtA&sig2=hjHcfu2rQPqehwFQechfaA) [only time.](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUgpHZ97XTAhXM6CYKHRcWBvs4ChAWCDcwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcdfw.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2FDNA-Confirms-Death-Row-Inmates-Guilt-Prosecutors-168788926.html&usg=AFQjCNGk6mHNXZ6Vk2BZnkE5--wSACcgtA&sig2=_12m6C1utI9_R3OBx1Ip9g) One of the Arkansas murderers has also had DNA testing - IIRC they found his DNA on a cigarette butt (his brand) that also had blood from the victim. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/218 "2017-04-21T16:39:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Coleman case was in Virginia, and the governor of that state had to order the DNA testing. Maybe that won’t work in Arkansas. [In Texas they didn’t wait until after he was dead, and it didn’t work there either.](http://nypost.com/2000/07/13/new-dna-test-backs-texas-death-row-cons-guilt/) Nor is that [the](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUgpHZ97XTAhXM6CYKHRcWBvs4ChAWCCIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chron.com%2Fnews%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston%2Farticle%2FAbbott-says-DNA-testing-confirms-Skinner-s-guilt-4037705.php&usg=AFQjCNFE_L2kYOqPyYupKNlcHf8ebtZPtA&sig2=hjHcfu2rQPqehwFQechfaA) [only time.](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUgpHZ97XTAhXM6CYKHRcWBvs4ChAWCDcwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcdfw.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2FDNA-Confirms-Death-Row-Inmates-Guilt-Prosecutors-168788926.html&usg=AFQjCNGk6mHNXZ6Vk2BZnkE5--wSACcgtA&sig2=_12m6C1utI9_R3OBx1Ip9g) > > One of the Arkansas murderers has also had DNA testing - IIRC they found his DNA on a cigarette butt (his brand) that also had blood from the victim. > > Regards, > Shodan Not sure I get your point here. Sure, some Death Row prisoners will claim innocence and fight for that DNA test just to stay alive a little longer. OK, just give them the DNA test while they’re still alive to potentially benefit from it, and get it over with, then. If the test is positive, then the state was right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/219 "2017-04-21T16:45:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Not sure I get your point here. Sure, some Death Row prisoners will claim innocence and fight for that DNA test just to stay alive a little longer. OK, just give them the DNA test while they’re still alive to potentially benefit from it, and get it over with, then. If the test is positive, then the state was right. Small problem-the incredibly long turnaround time on DNA tests. There is no way you are going to change the laws to give cons priority in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/220 "2017-04-21T17:10:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Not sure I get your point here. Sure, some Death Row prisoners will claim innocence and fight for that DNA test just to stay alive a little longer. OK, just give them the DNA test while they’re still alive to potentially benefit from it, and get it over with, then. If the test is positive, then the state was right. Lee’s appeal for DNA testing was turned down because he never raised the issue before. One of the drugs used to execute him was supposed to expire at the end of the month, so Lee’s attorneys wanted more DNA tests so they could stall until they expired, and thus delay some more. The advanced DNA tests Lee’s attorneys wanted have been available for years, but they never asked for them until now. And the appeals court ruled that even without the shoe, there was sufficient evidence to convict. It was a pretty evident stall - just the last in 24 years of stalling. Regards, Shodan PS - [Cite](http://www.thv11.com/news/local/judge-denies-aclus-motion-for-new-dna-testing-in-ledell-lee-case/432297851). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=12)