# The Arkansas Executions, or More Evidence that Prison for Murderers Doesn't Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648 "2017-04-17T18:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/261 "2020-01-24T16:37:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you read the OP, you will notice this Which is evidence that the alternative is not just as effective. The alternative isn’t “let the guy out in a handful of years”, but LWOP. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/262 "2020-01-24T16:41:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The alternative isn’t “let the guy out in a handful of years”, but LWOP. And the guy who escaped did so very quickly after being sentenced. So unless you want to give the judge a gun and let him shoot the defendant dead as soon as he’s found guilty, I don’t see how sentencing him to death instead of LWOP would have helped. But of course, this has already been pointed out to Shodan in this very thread, so… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/263 "2020-01-24T16:56:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It is not evidence for that, because you are still pretending that the number of innocents executed is zero. Of course it’s evidence, unless you are pretending that the number of people murdered by previous offenders is zero, and you can’t pretend that because there are examples right in the OP. > [@](#): > > Nor should those who are arguing that innocents have been executed have to point to specific examples. I disagree - if you are going to assert something, I would like to see evidence. > [@](#): > > We can find plenty of examples where justice has not been done, such as a man sentenced to death while his court-appointed attorney slept through his trial. Now, maybe that man was innocent, and maybe he was guilty. We’re certainly going to have a hard time proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he was innocent. But there also was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. This is false. There was indeed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty, even if his lawyer slept. That was the finding of the legal system. > [@](#): > > So, look for cases where there’s a 1% chance that the defendant didn’t actually do it. For every hundred of those, there is, on average, one innocent man. Look for cases where there’s a 10% chance that he didn’t do it. For every ten of those, there is, on average, one innocent man. Look for cases where it’s 50-50: For every two of those, there’s one innocent man. It adds up to a heck of a lot of innocent men, even if we don’t know which ones. As I am sure you are aware, that’s not how the criminal justice system works. It’s binary - either guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or not guilty. If you would like to go thru the exercise of finding the cases of 1% chance of actual innocence and do the math from there, fine with me. But show your work, and if you aren’t going to provide any examples as you mention above, then I don’t see how you can establish that 1%, or 10%, or 50%, is anything but a figure you plucked out of the air. And I have already provided examples of murderers sentenced to prison, even including LWOP, who killed innocent people. And [more examples are not hard to come by](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308750475_Released_to_Kill_Again_An_Analysis_of_Paroled_Murderers_Who_Murder_Again_While_on_Parole). > [@](#): > > [A 2002 study by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), which tracked 272,000 paroled prisoners in 15 states, including New York, found that 1.2 percent of those released after serving a sentence for murder were rearrested on homicide charges within a three-year period](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2011/jul/15/paroled-killers-rarely-re-offend/). And that’s only after three years. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/264 "2020-01-24T16:56:55Z")
And unfortunately, generally in cases that aren’t brought until years later, there just isn’t enough evidence to support a standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt”. This is a problem. The solution is not to abandon the requirement of “beyond a reasonable doubt”; the solution is to change society so that victims are able to come forward right away while evidence is still fresh. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/265 "2020-01-24T16:58:20Z")
OK, **Shodan** , thanks for the cite that 98.8% of people convicted for murder didn’t need to be in prison at all. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/266 "2020-01-24T17:03:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But as I said, there is not new evidence in most cases even we someone protests their innocence. No DNA out there; nothing. Zero chance of reversing the conviction. > > So under this logic, and since there could at least be one innocent person wrongfully incarcerated, we should eliminate incarceration as a whole, especially LWOP. Ridiculous “logic” Mistakes in the system are inevitable – everyone agrees on that point. The logic you’re missing has to do with the consequences of the system’s errors. At least we can offer money to someone who’s been locked up wrongfully. More importantly, we can offer that man freedom with whatever time is left. You cannot offer any kind of compensation at all to someone who’s been convicted. More than that, you can only offer money as compensation to the aggrieved when what they really would have preferred is more time with their loved ones. How effing hard is that to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/267 "2020-01-24T17:03:31Z")
Early days yet, but this is a strong contender for Non Sequitur of the Year for 2020. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/268 "2020-01-24T17:05:46Z")
I don’t even want to know how many innocent human beings have been executed. It’s too horrifying. The number of people, especially minorities, and ESPECIALLY Blacks, who have been wrongly imprisoned is horrifying enough. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/269 "2020-01-24T17:50:16Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Ridiculous “logic” > > Mistakes in the system are inevitable – everyone agrees on that point. The logic you’re missing has to do with the consequences of the system’s errors. At least we can offer money to someone who’s been locked up wrongfully. More importantly, we can offer that man freedom with whatever time is left. > > You cannot offer any kind of compensation at all to someone who’s been convicted. More than that, you can only offer money as compensation to the aggrieved when what they really would have preferred is more time with their loved ones. > > How effing hard is that to understand? You cannot give any money to someone who has no way of proving his innocence. That is a pipe dream for anti-DP activists. Reversals of convictions on habeas corpus are so rare that judges are rubber stamping denials. But your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for decades, but just not executing them. That’s not ridiculous logic. You KNOW that there are innocent people in prison who have no way of proving their innocence, there will be no money coming to them, no freedom coming to them, yet you still support LWOP. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/270 "2020-01-24T19:15:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You cannot give any money to someone who has no way of proving his innocence. That is a pipe dream for anti-DP activists. Reversals of convictions on habeas corpus are so rare that judges are rubber stamping denials. No, I mean reversals of convictions based on DNA evidence, such as the kind that the Innocence Project has produced over the years. I’m not debating whether someone actually has or hasn’t been wrongfully executed post-1976 – I’m guessing that, over time, the odds of executing an innocent person rise to 100. It’s just plain math, really. > [@UltraVires](#): > > But your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for decades, but just not executing them. That’s not ridiculous logic. You KNOW that there are innocent people in prison who have no way of proving their innocence, there will be no money coming to them, no freedom coming to them, yet you still support LWOP. What the Christ is your argument? Sheesh, you’re creating a Mount Rushmore-sized straw man right out of thin air. Yes, I still support life without parole because it’s possible to reverse that mistake. Simultaneously, I would advocate improvements in the system that make wrongful convictions - capital crimes or not - rarer than they are today. See, **people can walk and chew gum at the same time**. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/271 "2020-01-24T19:23:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You KNOW that there are innocent people in prison who have no way of proving their innocence, there will be no money coming to them, no freedom coming to them, yet you still support LWOP. I’m curious. Are you advocating that the strenuous requirements of a death penalty case be applied to all cases? As you said, death penalty cases require a great deal of time and money, much much more than a regular murder case, including massive post conviction work and spending. Are you advocating the changing of the system so that ALL cases get treated like death penalty cases? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/272 "2020-01-24T20:04:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m curious. Are you advocating that the strenuous requirements of a death penalty case be applied to all cases? As you said, death penalty cases require a great deal of time and money, much much more than a regular murder case, including massive post conviction work and spending. Are you advocating the changing of the system so that ALL cases get treated like death penalty cases? Yes and no. I think many more protections should be instituted at the trial level for both capital and non-capital cases. I think full discovery should be permitted as it is in civil cases with depositions, interrogatories and requests for production of documents (not just on the state, but subpoena power for private persons). More review of the factual findings of juries. None of this having to wait for 20 years if you are innocent to get relief and not waiting 20 years to be executed if you are guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/273 "2020-01-24T20:22:28Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yes and no. I think many more protections should be instituted at the trial level for both capital and non-capital cases. So capital cases would still be subjected to more stringent requirements than non-capital cases? > [@UltraVires](#): > > I think full discovery should be permitted as it is in civil cases with depositions, interrogatories and requests for production of documents (not just on the state, but subpoena power for private persons). More review of the factual findings of juries. Wow. The system is already snail slow. Adding yet more “protections” will not certainly not help you in your concerns of delays. Depositions in every felony case? Good lord, we’d have a backlog going into decades. Would your “additional protections” apply to all felonies, or just homicides? Is there a punishment level where you would be willing to draw a line between current system and your more stringent requirements? If so, would it be fair to say that “your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for xxx amount of time, but not for xxx + 1 year amount of time”? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/274 "2020-01-24T20:38:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yeah, I’m usually with Shodan on things, but this has to be correct. No human endeavor is perfect. Car brakes fail, planes crash, bridges fall. Our justice system will convict, at minimum, a non-zero number of innocent people, and if we have the death penalty we will execute a non-zero number of innocent people, even if we cannot point to THAT GUY and identify the innocent person executed. I similarly find myself agreeing with Shodan’s posts most of the time but not in this case. But my argument would not be the categorical one that it’s (the justice system) is devised by humans so it must make mistakes sometimes. It is and it does. However the case of eg. plane crashes shows up that we don’t reject systems or practices _just_ because they can make mistakes that kill innocent people. The air transport system has and will continue, at least rarely, to kill innocent people. Not abolishing it isn’t based on the idea we’ve seen the last fatal commercial airliner crash. Just the fact that innocent people might be killed by something doesn’t disqualify it. It depends how many and what good the thing accomplishes. However, the only real measure we have in the justice system is guilty/not-guilty. It’s IMO not rare enough for people to be executed who could or should have been found not guilty if the system was working as designed and advertised. It’s probably true that the number of executed people everyone (who has read articles or seen a documentary etc about the case) agrees almost certainly didn’t do it, at all, is very small or even zero for particular fairly long periods. But that’s a subjective finding by lay people and the bar set at _nearly everybody agrees they didn’t do it_. The system’s only official products are guilty and not-guilty so the only way to measure IMO is relative to that standard, with error being a person found guilty beyond reasonable doubt with omitted or wrong evidence that could or should have created reasonable doubt. Again _that’s_ not rare enough IMO in DP in US where it’s practiced, also combined with the high cost of all the attempted safeguards especially in terms of highly capable minds (who become lawyers when society might be better off if there wasn’t as much need for lawyers and those same brains worked on other things), compared to _relatively_ low cost and average capability people needed to just keep somebody locked up. And the fact that a few ‘life sentence’ murderers killed again isn’t any more a killer argument for the DP than again a domestic commercial airliner crash per decade or so invalidates the air transport system. Zero innocent deaths isn’t a realistic target in any of those situations mentioned IMO, with again the issue in DP cases being that the system has only two outputs G/NG. So there’s no choice IMO but to count G verdicts that should have been NG as error, not count ‘wholly innocent’ based on democratized arguments about opinions of media articles dealing with cases. We just don’t know who was ‘wholly innocent’ so it’s not a valid measure. With planes crashes we know 100% who are on the plane and in vast majority of cases we’re 100% sure they were innocent of causing the crash. And again still we accept _some_ such deaths. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/275 "2020-01-24T20:39:24Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So capital cases would still be subjected to more stringent requirements than non-capital cases? Wow. The system is already snail slow. Adding yet more “protections” will not certainly not help you in your concerns of delays. Depositions in every felony case? Good lord, we’d have a backlog going into decades. > > Would your “additional protections” apply to all felonies, or just homicides? Is there a punishment level where you would be willing to draw a line between current system and your more stringent requirements? If so, would it be fair to say that “your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for xxx amount of time, but not for xxx + 1 year amount of time”? I haven’t thought it all the way through yet, but certainly depositions in every felony case. If you sue me for money, we both get to take depositions. Why shouldn’t that apply when prison time or death is on the line instead of just money? If it is too slow, then the government needs to devote more resources. I’m a small government conservative, but at minimum the government should have functioning courts. No system is going to be perfect, but I think it has become far less perfect with the over criminalization of everything and the assembly line justice where even innocent people want to plead guilty because the downside and the horrendous sentence you will get by going to trial is simply too severe. As much as the jury system is revered, it is not the best system; there is too much prejudice, ignorance, and it is completely unreviewable except in the most extreme instances. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/276 "2020-01-24T21:54:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I haven’t thought it all the way through yet, but certainly depositions in every felony case. If you sue me for money, we both get to take depositions. Why shouldn’t that apply when prison time or death is on the line instead of just money? If it is too slow, then the government needs to devote more resources. I’d be highly skeptical of your ability to convince other “small government conservatives” to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the criminal justice system. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love more money. But a vast majority of “small government conservatives” are against spending on the criminal justice system. > [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m a small government conservative, but at minimum the government should have functioning courts. 45 of the 50 states do not have depositions for felony cases without prior court approval. Are you arguing 45 states don’t have “functioning courts”? > [@UltraVires](#): > > No system is going to be perfect, but I think it has become far less perfect with the over criminalization of everything and the assembly line justice where even innocent people want to plead guilty because the downside and the horrendous sentence you will get by going to trial is simply too severe. As much as the jury system is revered, it is not the best system; there is too much prejudice, ignorance, and it is completely unreviewable except in the most extreme instances. While I agree with you that the incarceration rate in the US is waaaaayyyy to high (especially with drug related offenses) and more addiction treatment is necessary, I disagree that the system is an “Assembly line justice where even innocent people want to plead guilty.” But, hey, if you can convince your political party to put more money into the criminal justice system, I’m all for it. And, if you get a second, could you answer my other question: "[W]ould it be fair to say that “your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for 365 days, but not for 365 +1 days”? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/277 "2020-01-24T22:06:44Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’d be highly skeptical of your ability to convince other “small government conservatives” to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the criminal justice system. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love more money. But a vast majority of “small government conservatives” are against spending on the criminal justice system. > > 45 of the 50 states do not have depositions for felony cases without prior court approval. Are you arguing 45 states don’t have “functioning courts”? > > While I agree with you that the incarceration rate in the US is waaaaayyyy to high (especially with drug related offenses) and more addiction treatment is necessary, I disagree that the system is an “Assembly line justice where even innocent people want to plead guilty.” But, hey, if you can convince your political party to put more money into the criminal justice system, I’m all for it. > > And, if you get a second, could you answer my other question: "[W]ould it be fair to say that “your side seems to be okay with putting innocent people in prison for 365 days, but not for 365 +1 days”? 1. I disagree with my party on this issue. 2. No. If it is decided that courts need X, Y, and Z to be fair, then the government should devote money for that purpose. Courts are a basic function of government and not big government spending. 3. I’m not sure the extent of your question. I’m not in favor of putting innocent people in prison for any length of time, however I understand that no system is perfect and that innocent people will fall through the cracks. Let’s enact my reforms to reduce the possibility of innocent people being convicted. But to say that we should not have this or that form of punishment because innocent people could be wrongly convicted seems to be an argument not to have any form of punishment lest we make an innocent person suffer. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/278 "2020-01-24T23:54:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is false. There was indeed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty, even if his lawyer slept. That was the finding of the legal system. Yes. There was also proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Leon Brown and Henry McCollum were guilty of the rape and murder of an 11-year-old girl in North Carolina, until new testing thirty years later showed somebody else’s DNA in her underwear. A key piece of evidence used to send them to prison was Brown’s confession, but a judge later ruled that a detective writing out the confession in the detective’s words, placing it in front of a mentally-disabled 15-year-old (Brown’s IQ tests in the range of 60), and browbeating him until he signed it amounted to official misconduct. Brown and McCollum remained alive to be released, although their post-release life [hasn’t been so great either](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/24/innocent-disabled-and-vulnerable). Down in Florida, Ralph Wright was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and sentenced to die for a double murder. He may have actually done it, but the Florida Supreme Court found on appeal that although he did have motive and opportunity, so did other people (who were never seriously investigated by the police), and there was not a shred of evidence actually linking him to the crime: no DNA, no eyewitnesses, no fingerprints or other forensic evidence, no confession, no murder weapon, nothing at all to say he’d even been in the same county at the time of the murders. The court concluded that: “Although the facts established at trial support a strong suspicion of guilt, they are not inconsistent with innocence” and [ordered a post-conviction acquittal](https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supreme-court/1860240.html). Also in Florida, Nathan Myers and his uncle Clifford Williams spent FORTY-THREE YEARS in prison for murdering one woman and shooting another, until the state attorney’s Conviction Integrity Review Unit started investigating and concluded that [the evidence was insufficient there too](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/29/us/florida-wrongful-imprisonment-42-years-murder/index.html). While the state can’t give them back those years, at least they can have whatever years remain to them, which is more than can be said for those who have been executed. Since 1973, [at least 167 men](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence-database) convicted of capital murder have been freed based on new evidence or post-conviction remedies. Average time from conviction to release: 14 years. **Shodan** , would you have been comfortable if any or all of these men had been executed within 21 days of conviction? (Remember, your OP included the case of a murderer who escaped three weeks after conviction, so to prevent repeats, you must execute the convicted swiftly.) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/279 "2020-01-24T23:57:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But as I said, there is not new evidence in most cases even we someone protests their innocence. No DNA out there; nothing. Zero chance of reversing the conviction. There doesn’t need to be NEW evidence; sometimes it is sufficient to reexamine old evidence with fresh eyes. Look at the three cases I cite in #278; only one of the three relied on DNA. In fact, of the 167 exonerations cited by the Death Penalty Information Center (linked above), just 20 relied on DNA. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/280 "2020-01-25T15:29:47Z")
So what should we do with convicted murderers? Executing innocent people is wrong, but so is keeping innocent people in prison is also wrong. And what if a man commits a hideous double murder, has to sit in prison awaiting his trial and is found “not guilty”? Would such a person ever commit another violent crime and end up in prison? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=15)