# The Arkansas Executions, or More Evidence that Prison for Murderers Doesn't Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648 "2017-04-17T18:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/41 "2017-04-17T22:00:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I really disagree with all three claims here. Then your moral compass is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/42 "2017-04-17T22:08:55Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Then your moral compass is flawed. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but you’re not supporting it very well. > [@](#): > > killing is killing Our legal system, and most of our citizens I believe, understand quite well there are various degrees of severity in killing, like legally justifiable, accidental, negligent, intentional. That’s why we have laws that cover various circumstances, like manslaughter vs murder, for example. > [@](#): > > all killing is equally immoral in the eyes of God Before I respond to this one, just curious: do you ascribe to a particular religion? > [@](#): > > supporting a killing makes one morally complicit in it. Are Obama-voters complicit in the killing of Osama Bin Laden in your eyes? Are all people that didn’t denounce it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/43 "2017-04-17T22:18:02Z")
[Quote=HurricaneDitka] Are Obama-voters complicit in the killing of Osama Bin Laden in your eyes? Are all people that didn’t denounce it? [/QUOTE] I’ll let you waste your own time on the truth teller but this is a bullshit question. Not every Obama voter approved of this assassination. Beren Erchamion said “supporting a killing” not "ever supported a guy who at one point ordered a killing ". ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/44 "2017-04-17T22:20:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’ll let you waste your own time on the truth teller but this is a bullshit question. Not every Obama voter approved of this assassination. Beren Erchamion said “supporting a killing” not "ever supported a guy who at one point ordered a killing ". I’m trying to explore how far his “morally complicit” definition extends. I’m certainly not claiming every Obama voter is a “killer”. I’m asking him what he thinks. ETA: just curious, if you were to guess at a %, what % of Obama voters do you think approved of “this assassination”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/45 "2017-04-17T22:41:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Asking you to prove a claim? No, not weak at all. Aren’t you also making a claim? You said, and I quote: > [@](#): > > No demonstrably innocent person has been executed in the US since the reinstatement of the death penalty Yet, you haven’t made a case for this. Oh wait, you were given cites, but they didn’t fit your definiton of “demonstrably innocent”, which, btw, you never gave in your initial post. A wee bit weaselly wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/46 "2017-04-17T22:51:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s a point I’ve made in the past, but it bears repeating - if a system in which even one innocent dies is unacceptable, then not executing murderers is unacceptable. Your logic is flawed here. You’re ignoring false convictions. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/47 "2017-04-17T23:00:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Your logic is flawed here. You’re ignoring false convictions. I can’t really speak for Shodan, but I understand the core of the argument to be: if one’s position is that no innocents should die, then both the for- and against-death-penalty positions are imperfect: in the case of the for-death-penalty viewpoint, there’s a possibility that some innocent person will be convicted and executed, and in the case of the anti-death-penalty viewpoint, there’s a possibility that someone who would’ve been executed but was spared because the abolition of the death penalty kills an innocent person (perhaps a prison guard or uninvolved citizen in the case of an escape) who would have survived if their killer had been executed. Neither viewpoint can guarantee that no innocents die. I don’t see the flaw in the logic there. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/48 "2017-04-17T23:01:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > A wee bit weaselly wouldn’t you say? > [@CarnalK](#): > > …A little cowardly too. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Then your moral compass is flawed. Please dial back the personal commentary and focus on the debate at hand. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/49 "2017-04-17T23:12:20Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Killing is killing, all killing is equally immoral in the eyes of God, and supporting a killing makes one morally complicit in it. > > Therefore, since there are some condemned murderers who are innocent, then there is a less than 100% chance that a given condemned murderer is actually a killer. However, every supporter of the death penalty is definitely a killer, since they’re morally complicit in killing. What god are you talking about? It can’t YHWH form the bible. That guy loves him some good killin’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/50 "2017-04-17T23:17:05Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > 1. Of the vast majority of condemned murderers who are indeed complicit in killing, a number of them have at least repented and recognized that they were wrong. **No death penalty supporter has repented for the killings they’re complicit in and recognized they were wrong (if they had, they wouldn’t be death penalty supporters)**–and since it’s morally better to sin and then repent than it is to sin and not repent, the average condemned murderer is of a higher moral status than any death penalty supporter. (Bolding mine)How can you possibly state this as a fact? You have no idea if any death penalty supporters have ever “repented” or not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/51 "2017-04-17T23:32:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ETA: just curious, if you were to guess at a %, what % of Obama voters do you think approved of “this assassination”? Oh, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a guess. Just rather confident that it’s well below 100%. Americans love their righteous revenge killings but I’m sure a fair few Obama voters thought he’d be changing the game plan in that regard. What’s your % guess? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/52 "2017-04-17T23:35:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’d bring some interesting finality to the trial: > > “Will the defendant please rise?” > “Mr Foreman, what is the verdict?” > “Guilty” > “We excuse the jury with our thanks” > “Bailiff, carry out the sentence” Pretty sure that’'s how it worked in some Soviet countries. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/53 "2017-04-17T23:44:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (Bolding mine)How can you possibly state this as a fact? You have no idea if any death penalty supporters have ever “repented” or not. Did you actually bother to read the part you bolded? Because I explain it there. If they’ve repented for their support of the death penalty, then pretty much by definition they’re no longer a death penalty supporter. They were one in the past, but they’re not now, so they don’t fall in the category of “death penalty supporters” since at the moment, they’re not. And so they’re at least as morally upright as any other former killer who has repented for their sins–which is to say, more so than a killer who has not repented, which is the thrust of #2. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/54 "2017-04-17T23:47:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know anything at all about Damian Echols or his case (and I strongly suspect “most people” are in the same boat as me), but this claim of yours struck me as an odd one. He was one of the West Memphis 3. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/55 "2017-04-17T23:59:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a guess. Just rather confident that it’s well below 100%. Americans love their righteous revenge killings but I’m sure a fair few Obama voters thought he’d be changing the game plan in that regard. What’s your % guess? I was going to guess 80%+, but now I’ve gone and looked up [a poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/147395/americans-back-bin-laden-mission-credit-military-cia.aspx), and I’ll up that to 90%+. > [@](#): > > Overwhelming majorities of all subgroups of the American population approve of Sunday’s action, including 97% of Republicans and 95% of Democrats. Independents are slightly less likely to approve, at 89%, with 8% disapproving. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/56 "2017-04-18T00:07:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One of the murderers mentioned was convicted, in part, because his DNA was recovered from a cigarette butt that also had the victim’s blood on it. If he could produce evidence that it wasn’t his DNA, then that would be the kind of evidence that would help. But he can’t do that, because he is actually, factually guilty - he did do it, and the evidence proves it. I’m asking you what it would take to challenge your claim that not one innocent person has been executed. You clarified the claim – you insisted on definitive proof of innocence. I’m asking for an example of such proof. You said the DNA mismatch is the kind of evidence that “would help.” Did you mean it was sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/57 "2017-04-18T00:10:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s a point I’ve made in the past, but it bears repeating - if a system in which even one innocent dies is unacceptable, then not executing murderers is unacceptable. Because at least three innocent people died because we did not execute these folks, as we should. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Do you favour executing first time drunk drivers? Or employers convicted of serious safety violations? > [@Bone](#): > > Please dial back the personal commentary and focus on the debate at hand. Hokay, let’s focus on the debate at hand. Shodan, please answer the questions: [ul] [li]Do you favour executing first time drunk drivers?[/li][li]Do you favoour executing employers convicted of serious safety violations?[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/58 "2017-04-18T00:38:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No demonstrably innocent person has been executed in the US since the reinstatement of the death penalty, but at least three demonstrably innocent people have been murdered because the DP was not imposed. There have been [157](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row157) people on death row who were found innocent and released. Those people were in jeopardy of being executed and could have been put to death before proving their innocence. If one were taking score with your logic, it would be at least 157 or more to 3. Now, take into account the fact that not everybody on death row has people working for them tirelessly to prove their innocence and that some courts will deny even hearing the evidence of their innocence and it seems likely that innocent people have been executed. [Here](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent) are 13 people who were executed but who were likely innocent and if you click “Also Noted” on that last page, it goes to a list of 10 or so people who were pardoned after their execution due to being innocent, although a couple go back 100 years. Your entire premise is highly suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/59 "2017-04-18T02:03:19Z")
As a reminder, if you are a judge who has just imposed a restraining order that barred the execution of a condemned man and you hope to have that restraining order stand then it is probably a bad idea to attend an anti-death penalty protest and [lay on](http://katv.com/news/local/arkansas-judge-barred-from-death-penalty-cases) a cot in simulation of the lethal injection procedure in protest. Restraining order overturned. Arkansas Supreme Court has barred him from further death penalty cases. He is being referred to examine if his action rose to the level of judicial misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/60 "2017-04-18T02:24:39Z")
And I’m going to call the descriptions and such of Baron Erchamion and his argument-style to be out of bounds. Such posts are a hijack away from the discussion. If you must, please do so elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=4)