# The Arkansas Executions, or More Evidence that Prison for Murderers Doesn't Work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648 "2017-04-17T18:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/81 "2017-04-18T16:27:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The entire premise of the debate is flawed. The choice is not between letting people go and killing them. The choice should be between a life sentence with no parole and killing them. In that case, the moral choice is clear: the life sentence is preferable because it relieves society of the moral burden of killing someone and it allows for erroneous convictions to be overturned. So if some state paroles a convicted murderer and he kills again, the fault doesn’t lie with the lack of capital punishment, it lies with there being parole for murderers. But what if an innocent man is sentenced to life without parole and dies in prison? How is that error rectified? Maybe no (might maybe be innocent) murderer should be sentenced to anything. It would be cheaper, and hey, we don’t want to put innocent people in prison for life. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/82 "2017-04-18T16:30:28Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Except that capital murderers continue to injure and kill people while in prison, guards and other inmates alike. But prison guards and convicts aren’t “the public”, I guess. Non-violent drug offenders kill people in prison too. Prison is a pretty terrible place, where people do things that they would not do on the streets. Judging someone for their behavior while being treated as a caged animal, or as you are doing here, predicting the behavior of an individual once you lock him up like an animal does absolutely nothing to further any idea of “justice”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/83 "2017-04-18T16:34:54Z")
Man, I don’t know why you people are trying to argue this with **Shodan**. He’s got you completely beat on this issue. No innocent person has ever been put to death in the US in the last fifty years. Case closed. Now, let’s move on to the next question. Given that we have established that the government can work both without error, and with perfect benevolence, what else should we have the government do for us? I mean, obviously, health care. And charter schools shouldn’t even be a debate any more: lots of private organizations are very, very good at what they do, obviously, but a 100% success rate? It takes (apparently) the government to be _that_ good at something. What other things should our perfect, never-makes-a-mistake government be in charge of, **Shodan**? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/84 "2017-04-18T16:38:01Z")
There’s another flaw with the OP’s argument: In the real world that we actually live in, we do have the death penalty, and it still didn’t stop these convicted murderers from killing again. So the OP’s premise isn’t “we should have the death penalty”, because we already do. It must be something more like “the death penalty should be applied more quickly than it is”. So, **Shodan** , how quickly do you think the death penalty should be applied? Because as soon as you give us that number, we can start counting up the number of people who were sentenced to death but then exonerated after that time span had elapsed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/85 "2017-04-18T16:50:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s another flaw with the OP’s argument: In the real world that we actually live in, we do have the death penalty, and it still didn’t stop these convicted murderers from killing again. So the OP’s premise isn’t “we should have the death penalty”, because we already do. It must be something more like “the death penalty should be applied more quickly than it is”. So, **Shodan** , how quickly do you think the death penalty should be applied? Because as soon as you give us that number, we can start counting up the number of people who were sentenced to death but then exonerated after that time span had elapsed. Ah, but if they were executed before they could be exonerated, then they never would have been exonerated, as we do not exonerate dead people, so still, no innocent people put to death. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/86 "2017-04-18T16:53:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What are you relying on to make this determination? The fact that all of them were convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, and that their convictions survived the endless years and decades of appeals. And no evidence has been produced to date to overcome this, especially in the case of the eight murderers mentioned in the OP. The presumption of innocence has been overcome in all these cases. Their guilt has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. In at least a couple of cases, beyond any doubt at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/87 "2017-04-18T16:57:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The fact that all of them were convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, and that their convictions survived the endless years and decades of appeals. And no evidence has been produced to date to overcome this, especially in the case of the eight murderers mentioned in the OP. > > The presumption of innocence has been overcome in all these cases. Their guilt has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. In at least a couple of cases, beyond any doubt at all. > > Regards, > Shodan 1. Have you actually researched these 8 cases, or are you relying on the blurbs in the article in the OP? 2. Don’t decades of appeals give ample opportunity for escapes and in-prison murders? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/88 "2017-04-18T17:05:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Are we sure that murderers who’ve completed their sentences are more likely to kill again than the general public? I’m still looking for studies, but here’s an early result: > > [CBS News: Once a criminal, always a criminal?](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/once-a-criminal-always-a-criminal/) This study ([cite](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf), pdf) says that 1.2% of those convicted of homicide are re-arrested for homicide within three years. I can’t find hard figures for the general public, but there were 15,696 murders in 2015 ([cite](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html)) and the population was something like 320 million during that year. 16000 divided by 320 million is a lot less than 1.2%. Something like 0.0005. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/89 "2017-04-18T17:08:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This study ([cite](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf), pdf) says that 1.2% of those convicted of homicide are re-arrested for homicide within three years. > > I can’t find hard figures for the general public, but there were 15,696 murders in 2015 ([cite](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html)) and the population was something like 320 million during that year. 16000 divided by 320 million is a lot less than 1.2%. Something like 0.0005. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s a start, at least, though arrested /= convicted, and it’s unclear whether that includes arrests for murders that pre-date the release, i.e. old crimes being discovered and prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/90 "2017-04-18T17:11:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This study ([cite](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf), pdf) says that 1.2% of those convicted of homicide are re-arrested for homicide within three years. > > I can’t find hard figures for the general public, but there were 15,696 murders in 2015 ([cite](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html)) and the population was something like 320 million during that year. 16000 divided by 320 million is a lot less than 1.2%. Something like 0.0005. > > Regards, > Shodan But it is these particular people that you want put to death out if the entire prison population, so how do they score versus other ex-felons? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/91 "2017-04-18T17:12:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, but if they were executed before they could be exonerated, then they never would have been exonerated, as we do not exonerate dead people, so still, no innocent people put to death. Unfortunately, your belief that the dead cannot be exonerated is false. For example, Roger Coleman was convicted and executed for the murder of his sister-in-law. Afterwards, anti-DP proponents retested the blood on his pants in an effort to establish his innocence, using a DNA analysis that wasn’t available when he was convicted. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess what the results of that retesting was. **Bricker** started a thread about it, but then again he is an honest debater. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/92 "2017-04-18T17:20:56Z")
Most of the replies seem to be attacking the OP’s stated numbers. Would these posters agree that the death penalty was a good policy if more people actually died from escaped murderers than the number of wrongly convicted who were executed by the state, as claimed by the OP? I doubt it. I think their opposition to state sanctioned killing is more sophisticated than that. Similarly, I don’t think people who oppose the security state or expanded police powers would reverse their stance if they were convinced it would catch more criminals. They probably already believe that would be a consequence, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/93 "2017-04-18T17:23:53Z")
[Interesting report about recidivism rates](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/once-a-criminal-always-a-criminal/)-which ex-felons are more/less likely to commit which crimes once they are released. Ex-murderers don’t look too bad compared to other felons according to this story. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/94 "2017-04-18T17:26:42Z")
**Shodan** : Why do you keep dodging questions about your claim that no innocent person has been executed, such as **Bricker’s**? Is it because you realize it’s a bad argument, and you don’t want to dwell on it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/95 "2017-04-18T17:38:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Most of the replies seem to be attacking the OP’s stated numbers. Would these posters agree that the death penalty was a good policy if more people actually died from escaped murderers than the number of wrongly convicted who were executed by the state, as claimed by the OP? I doubt it. I think their opposition to state sanctioned killing is more sophisticated than that. Similarly, I don’t think people who oppose the security state or expanded police powers would reverse their stance if they were convinced it would catch more criminals. They probably already believe that would be a consequence, anyway. OK, I think it is quite likely that the number of murder victims from convicted murderers is higher than the number of innocent men executed. But I understand- We dont want to execute even one innocent man. OTOH, erroneous convictions are impossible to avoid. Some have said that a long term in prison is worse that being executed. Whether or not that is true- should we not send anyone to prison either, based on the fact some % of them will be innocent? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/96 "2017-04-18T17:50:37Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > But what if an innocent man is sentenced to life without parole and dies in prison? How is that error rectified? > > Maybe no (might maybe be innocent) murderer should be sentenced to anything. It would be cheaper, and hey, we don’t want to put innocent people in prison for life. > [@DrDeth](#): > > OK, I think it is quite likely that the number of murder victims from convicted murderers is higher than the number of innocent men executed. > > But I understand- We dont want to execute even one innocent man. OTOH, erroneous convictions are impossible to avoid. Some have said that a long term in prison is worse that being executed. Whether or not that is true- should we not send anyone to prison either, based on the fact some % of them will be innocent? Right. Isn’t it wrong to keep innocent people in prison for years, even if they die there. How do you rectify that? And all the money spent on housing them, feeding them, and their endless appeals. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/97 "2017-04-18T17:52:04Z")
“We may kill innocent people…but not as many as those murderers do!” _There’s_ a great slogan to live by. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/98 "2017-04-18T17:55:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, your belief that the dead cannot be exonerated is false. For example, Roger Coleman was convicted and executed for the murder of his sister-in-law. Afterwards, anti-DP proponents retested the blood on his pants in an effort to establish his innocence, using a DNA analysis that wasn’t available when he was convicted. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess what the results of that retesting was. **Bricker** started a thread about it, but then again he is an honest debater. > [@wiki](#): > > On January 5, 2006, Warner ordered DNA evidence to be retested. The evidence was sent to the Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto, which determined that his DNA matched with no exclusions and that there was only a 1-in-19-million chance of a random match. On January 12, 2006, Warner’s office announced that the test results confirmed Coleman’s guilt. This reminds me of the Connecticut home invasion murders, when the defense asked Dr. Petit (during cross examination, paraphrased) “Yes, this man broke into your house, beat the crap out of you and locked you in the basement, and you heard him torturing and raping your wife and daughters and threatening you with torture and murder when they were done. But you escaped, so you didn’t actually see them set the fire that killed your entire family. So how do you know they didn’t leave, and another person came by and set the fire?” ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/99 "2017-04-18T17:56:16Z")
**Shodan** , this has already been brought up in this thread but I don’t think you’ve addressed it. Kenneth Williams, one of the convicts singled out in your OP, was convicted of murder and sentenced to life without parole. He broke out of prison **after being there for three weeks** and killed again. What system are you proposing that would have prevented additional innocent lives being lost? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648/100 "2017-04-18T18:01:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, your belief that the dead cannot be exonerated is false. I may have missed it, but I have not come across any people who have been exonerated after receiving the death penalty, so I am skeptical about your claim. [Here’s a real quick link](http://madamenoire.com/73840/exonerated-after-execution-12-men-and-one-woman-found-innocent-after-being-put-to-death/) to a dozen or so people who have been executed that very liekly didn’t do it. > [@](#): > > For example, Roger Coleman was convicted and executed for the murder of his sister-in-law. Afterwards, anti-DP proponents retested the blood on his pants in an effort to establish his innocence, using a DNA analysis that wasn’t available when he was convicted. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess what the results of that retesting was. Wow, a single example of a convicted murderer that, upon further preponderance fo the evidence, turned out to likely be a murderer. How does that in any way shape or form affect anyone who is not that specific guy? > [@](#): > > **Bricker** started a thread about it, but then again he is an honest debater. Yes, he is, but then again, so are the people in this thread. > [@](#): > > Regards, > Shodan And you, my friend, you have a great day! k9 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arkansas-executions-or-more-evidence-that-prison-for-murderers-doesnt-work/784648.md?page=6)