The Arkansas Executions, or More Evidence that Prison for Murderers Doesn't Work

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

I assume you would be willing to include other factors also difficult or impossible to measure, like deterrence. Or are you going to insist that only factors that can be proven need to be considered? If so, please explain the basis for the distinction.

Regards,
Shodan

Certainly such factors could reasonably be considered. You did see the “at least” part, right?

[Shodan]

@iiandyiiii

Certainly such factors could reasonably be considered. You did see the “at least” part, right?

That’s fair enough. When someone demands statistics on how many murders are deterred by the death penalty, I will refer them to you.

@k9bfriender

Well, you may be right, as the number of innocents killed by murderers is a useless statistic to use in arguing about the death penalty, so it is quite likely that whatever number you happen to come up with, it will still be irrelevant.

Why is “number of innocent lives lost” a useless statistic when talking about those who die at the hands of repeat murderers, but not when talking about the innocently executed? If the death of innocents is a bad thing, then it would seem that the best policy is that which reduces that number as low as possible. If we don’t care how many die, then why do we care about the one-in-a-million-maybe who are executed?

@Czarcasm

Then what is all this crap about protecting society from the chance of them murdering again? Was that just shit thrown at the wall to buttress your desire to see them dead?

Do you understand the concept of moral distinctions in punishment? Let me know if I should explain it.

Regards,
Shodan

[CaptMurdock]

@Shodan

I assume you would be willing to include other factors also difficult or impossible to measure, like deterrence. Or are you going to insist that only factors that can be proven need to be considered? If so, please explain the basis for the distinction.

Regards,
Shodan

Oh, yeah, deterrence. That’s a biggie. I mean, given that a lot of these murderers live in an environment where they face on a daily basis the strong possibility of a DP that does not come with anything you would recognize as “due process,” I’m not sure they would see a DP that would take a decade or more to implement, usually done by the most painless and humane ways known to modern science, as a deterrent.

JMHO. YMMV.

[k9bfriender]

@Shodan

Why is “number of innocent lives lost” a useless statistic when talking about those who die at the hands of repeat murderers, but not when talking about the innocently executed? If the death of innocents is a bad thing, then it would seem that the best policy is that which reduces that number as low as possible. If we don’t care how many die, then why do we care about the one-in-a-million-maybe who are executed?

Regards,
Shodan

Innocent people die all the time, and it’s sad, but it happens. Sometimes they have accidents, sometimes they get sick, sometimes the accidents or illness could have been prevented by having harsher penalties on executives who make decisions that cause the conditions that harm people. Sometimes people are murdered, and once again, that’s sad, but it is something that happens, and there really isn’t much we can do to prevent it.

Executing people isn’t just something that happens, it is something that we, as a society, actively do. So, if an innocent is executed, it’s not just something that happens, it is something that we made happen.

There is a distinction there, one that you may not care about, but in my opinion a very important one.

[iiandyiiii]

@Shodan

That’s fair enough. When someone demands statistics on how many murders are deterred by the death penalty, I will refer them to you.

What did I say to deserve the patented Shodan snark? I was introducing another factor into the discussion, and specifically leaving it open for additional factors as well.

[Fuji]

@AlsoNamedBort

He escaped 3 weeks after being convicted. Unless you’re arguing that the convicted should be shot as soon as the judge bangs his gavel, I don’t see the difference the death penalty would have made here.

@Chronos

There’s another flaw with the OP’s argument: In the real world that we actually live in, we do have the death penalty, and it still didn’t stop these convicted murderers from killing again. So the OP’s premise isn’t “we should have the death penalty”, because we already do. It must be something more like “the death penalty should be applied more quickly than it is”. So, Shodan, how quickly do you think the death penalty should be applied? Because as soon as you give us that number, we can start counting up the number of people who were sentenced to death but then exonerated after that time span had elapsed.

@Lance_Turbo

Shodan, this has already been brought up in this thread but I don’t think you’ve addressed it. Kenneth Williams, one of the convicts singled out in your OP, was convicted of murder and sentenced to life without parole. He broke out of prison after being there for three weeks and killed again.

What system are you proposing that would have prevented additional innocent lives being lost?

@Human_Action

Further, efforts to drive down Y by having far more executions, each as close to the conviction date as possible, will cause X to skyrocket. This has been remarked upon in the thread, but remains unaddressed by Shodan.

OP - please address this important aspect of the debate. You have been avoiding it for several pages now.

[Jonathan_Chance]

@Czarcasm

Then what is all this crap about protecting society from the chance of them murdering again? Was that just shit thrown at the wall to buttress your desire to see them dead?

That’ll earn you a warning, Czarcasm. Both the ‘shit thrown at the wall’ thing and imputing motives to your debate opponents. You should know better.

[Shodan]

@Fuji

OP - please address this important aspect of the debate. You have been avoiding it for several pages now.

Actually I touched on it in this post -

@Chronos

Shodan, do you have any reason to believe that if Williams had been sentenced to death instead of to LWOP, that he would not have escaped?

No, but that’s not quite the point.

LWOP is what liberals want instead of the DP, and the idea is that LWOP is just as good as the death penalty in protecting the public. The example cited shows that it is not. LWOP prisoners have the rest of their lives to plot escape, and sometimes they bring it off, and sometimes they kill innocent people. Eventually, those on death row are executed - at that point, they can no longer threaten the public.

Although, to be fair, some people have escaped from death row and killed again. They just have a smaller window of opportunity to do so, because eventually the threat they present ends.

As mentioned, the guy in question was not sentenced to death, but to LWOP. Therefore, it doesn’t matter how soon executions are carried out - he was not going to be executed at all, until after he killed again.

As mentioned, it is possible that security is higher on death row than for LWOP, although people have in fact escaped from death row and killed again.

As mentioned, the window of opportunity exists until a convict dies. With the DP, that window is large. With LWOP it is even larger.

If there is some way to decrease the time between convictions and executions, that would reduce the window and thus reduce the risk. It is possible that some convicts could escape even if the appeals process were speeded up. But it would still have a definite end. That end does not exist with LWOP.

Regards,
Shodan

[Czarcasm]

@Shodan

As mentioned, it is possible that security is higher on death row than for LWOP, although people have in fact escaped from death row and killed again.

Often enough to worry about, or not often enough to be anything more than a statistical anomaly?

@Shodan

If there is some way to decrease the time between convictions and executions, that would reduce the window and thus reduce the risk.

How much would you like it decreased?

[Czarcasm]

If the time between conviction and execution is decreased, does that not increase the chance that an innocent person will be executed?

[AlsoNamedBort]

@Shodan

Actually I touched on it in this post -
As mentioned, the guy in question was not sentenced to death, but to LWOP. Therefore, it doesn’t matter how soon executions are carried out - he was not going to be executed at all, until after he killed again.

As mentioned, it is possible that security is higher on death row than for LWOP, although people have in fact escaped from death row and killed again.

As mentioned, the window of opportunity exists until a convict dies. With the DP, that window is large. With LWOP it is even larger.

If there is some way to decrease the time between convictions and executions, that would reduce the window and thus reduce the risk. It is possible that some convicts could escape even if the appeals process were speeded up. But it would still have a definite end. That end does not exist with LWOP.

Regards,
Shodan

But will you agree that your one example is completely irrelevant to this point? Do you have any examples of a murderer escaping prison after fifteen years and then murdering someone else?

[BigT]

First off, you’re making assumptions. There are people who oppose the death penalty because they are afraid that innocent people will be killed. But far more think the entire thing is morally wrong because they view the killing of another human being when you have any other choice to be wrong. Others argue that it’s not actually effective.

But even if we limit it to just those who are worried about innocent people being killed, you’ve made the second assumption that someone breaking out and killing is more likely than someone being killed by the state who was innocent. That is something you need to actually establish.

I will say one more thing: your sassiness does not make me want to side with you. Nor does calling them 'wastes of oxygen" incline me to want to be on your side, even though I am (since the election) reconsidering my stance on the death penalty. (I have a lot less faith in the general goodness of humanity after that, or that God is protecting us.)

Even if I do decide it may be acceptable sometimes, it will 100% always be some sort of agonizing choice. They are still people. What if they really are just sick and there’s something that could fix them? What if there was something I could say to them to get them to see the light? If they aren’t fixed, they go to Hell. And I just agreed they belong there. Did I leave vengeance to God, or did I just sin and condemn myself?

It’s not an easy thing to deal with.

[Shodan]

@AlsoNamedBort

But will you agree that your one example is completely irrelevant to this point?

No, it’s relevant for the reasons discussed.

Do you have any examples of a murderer escaping prison after fifteen years and then murdering someone else?

Here’sa guy who killed in 1997 and escaped in 2015, if that counts. Or how about this guy -

Dawud Mu’Min – Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997. which fits your timeline.

Regards,
Shodan

[Shodan]

@BigT

I will say one more thing: your sassiness does not make me want to side with you.

Imagine my chagrin.

Regards,
Shodan

[Human_Action]

@Shodan

As mentioned, the window of opportunity exists until a convict dies. With the DP, that window is large. With LWOP it is even larger.

Here’s a list of the 20 people executed in 2016.

Average time between conviction and execution: 18.55 years
Average age at execution: 48.75
Life expectancy for inmates serving a life sentence*: 58.1 years

• In Michigan, the only state I could find data for.

Under current conditions, replacing life sentences with death would close your proposed “threat window” 10 years earlier, on average. However, this would be the years between 48 and 58, which are not prime criminal years.

I, for one, am unwilling to trade a marked increase of the likelihood of innocent people being executed for having fewer 48+ year old convicted murderers in prison.

[DinoR]

@Shodan

It’s a point I’ve made in the past, but it bears repeating -** if a system in which even one innocent dies is unacceptable, then not executing murderers is unacceptable.** Because at least three innocent people died because we did not execute these folks, as we should.

My bolding. That piece does not directly follow since we’re comparing two options. In both of those approaches innocent people can die. We’re then stuck making a choice over which innocent people die because no option saves them all.

[Fuji]

@Shodan

Actually I touched on it in this post -
As mentioned, the guy in question was not sentenced to death, but to LWOP. Therefore, it doesn’t matter how soon executions are carried out - he was not going to be executed at all, until after he killed again. (emphasis added)

I’d say it, in fact, matters very much how soon the executions are carried out. Keep in mind, as of 2010, the average amount of time an inmate spends on Death Row before execution is nearly 15 years. I was unable to find a statistic on-line as to the average amount of time a LWOP prisoner spends incarcerated before they expire, but given the limits of human biology, it must be within the same order of magnitude. Ergo, I find any of this concern over escapees murdering again to be specious.

You allude to this in your next paragraph, but as noted above, I find this to be not significant:

As mentioned, the window of opportunity exists until a convict dies. With the DP, that window is large. With LWOP it is even larger.

Finally, there’s this:

If there is some way to decrease the time between convictions and executions, that would reduce the window and thus reduce the risk. It is possible that some convicts could escape even if the appeals process were speeded up. But it would still have a definite end. That end does not exist with LWOP. (emphasis added)

As other posters have noted, the only way to decrease the time is to increase the number of those executed for crimes they may not have committed. That end does not exist with LWOP.

[Fuji]

@Human_Action

Here’s a list of the 20 people executed in 2016.

Average time between conviction and execution: 18.55 years
Average age at execution: 48.75
Life expectancy for inmates serving a life sentence*: 58.1 years

• In Michigan, the only state I could find data for.

Under current conditions, replacing life sentences with death would close your proposed “threat window” 10 years earlier, on average. However, this would be the years between 48 and 58, which are not prime criminal years.

I, for one, am unwilling to trade a marked increase of the likelihood of innocent people being executed for having fewer 48+ year old convicted murderers in prison.

:smack: Crap! Just saw your post. Thanks for the citations.

[bobot]

Good, sane, humanitarian news:

"…But Arkansas has faced a wave of legal challenges, and the latest ruling from Pulaski County Circuit Judge Alice Gray over the drug vecuronium bromide upends the entire schedule. Gray sided with McKesson Corp., which had argued that it sold Arkansas the drug for medical use, not executions, and that it would suffer harm financially and to its reputation if the executions were carried out.
“Irreparable harm will result. Harm that could not be addressed by (monetary) damages,” Gray said in a ruling from the bench.
Judd Deere, a spokesman for Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge, said the state will appeal Gray’s ruling. "
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/arkansas-suffers-2-setbacks-to-multiple-execution-plan/2017/04/19/bd9c0dac-2565-11e7-928e-3624539060e8_story.html

[Shodan]

@DinoR

My bolding. That piece does not directly follow since we’re comparing two options. In both of those approaches innocent people can die. We’re then stuck making a choice over which innocent people die because no option saves them all.

You are correct. There is no system under which no innocents die. Therefore we have to choose the one in which the smallest number die.

Or a choice that depends on the presumption that in some way it is worse if one person is wrongly executed than if several are wrongly murdered. That is, I suppose, a principled stance, but not a principle I can agree with.

Regards,
Shodan