# The Army Sells The Big Red One to Sears **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474 "2008-09-13T20:04:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/21 "2008-09-14T01:52:49Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I just cannot fathom how this can be legal. How can the Army own the copyright and sell it for profit? It just seems impossible. Either it is in the public domain, like all works done by US government agencies, or it cannot be sold. But I just cannot see how the Army could legally make money out of this. The government owns lots of things that it can sell off if it wants to- supplies, contracts, land. Heck, the Postal Service (usually) turns a profit. It’s not as though the Joint Chiefs will be keeping the profits or something- it all goes back into the Treasury, or at least into the Army budget. FWIW, I don’t see what the big deal is. It’s a logo. Whoever died in uniform while a member of the 1st Infantry didn’t do so because they were in the 1st Infantry. If they were selling off the rights to the flag, or the national seal, that would be something shocking. ---
**Author:** ![that\_darn\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/59ef9b/32.png) [@that\_darn\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/that_darn_cat)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/22 "2008-09-14T02:13:37Z")
My grandfather served in the 1st. He fought in Italy and in the the Battle of the Bulge. I doubt he would be amused by wankers wearing his unit insignia. Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/23 "2008-09-14T02:25:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If they were selling off the rights to the flag, or the national seal, that would be something shocking. It is only a difference in degree, not in substance. Official symbols should not be used by the government for commercial profit. Either make them free to use or restrict their use if necessary but having the army start this kind of business stinks. What’s next? The Army running hotels and factories like they do in China? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/24 "2008-09-14T02:33:08Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Disgusting. It’s interesting, in a very sick way, what some people find theirs to sell. I thought the Clintons were disgusting for selling nights in the Lincoln Bedroom of the White House to their large political contributors. I guess the buyers, 'scuse me, contributors, thought perhaps they might experience a faint brush with Lincoln’s towering resolve and integrity. As for the Clinton’s, they sold something held in trust, i.e. it fucking wasn’t theirs to sell in the first place. Whored-out history, no two ways about it. > > Whoring out a famed infantry division, in which so many soldiers died for their country? I wonder how much thought buyers of Sears’s casual wear will give to the emblem in the first place? If it’s to ‘show respect’, they they sure as shit must be aware they didn’t earn the right to wear it. Courage, tradition and devotion aren’t transmitted by clothing. As for the sellers…nauseating. Whoever approved this particular sale on behalf of the Army deserves all the contempt the public and military vets can pour out. This pisses on a public trust again but it seems even worse to me. Probably because so many men died under that emblem. > > This sucks in so many ways. Ah yes, how soon we forget that GHWBush did the same thing and you remained quiet. Or that Bush Il Jong II lets donors of over $100,000 stay in the White House, but refuses to say where. [Client Challenge](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/88910_helenthomas29.shtml) 'Cause secret locations make it okay? Some do stay in the Lincoln “bedroom” (Lincoln’s old cabinet room). [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm) And the Bush I sold it out to none other than pay for play’s number one death trumps convict Ken Lay. [http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/](http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/). But you are quiet about that too. Limbaugh used to complain about it until he was invited. Reagan used to have donors over to the White House for dinners, so did Nixon and Carter. [Best Mother’s Day Gifts 2021 | 31 Unique Mother’s Day Gift Ideas | Observer](http://www.observer.com/node/43433) But its only disgusting when Democrats do it? That seems a tad hypocritical. Almost everyone has done it and it’s legal and not against the rules. Where are they supposed to stay? The Ramada? Do you guys ever choke on the depths of your hypocrisy? How about making Jeff Gannon, prostitute cum reporter, an unsigned in guest at the White House hundreds of times. The chirping of crickets. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/25 "2008-09-14T02:43:58Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Ah yes, how soon we forget that GHWBush did the same thing and you remained quiet. Or that Bush Il Jong II lets donors of over $100,000 stay in the White House, but refuses to say where. [Client Challenge](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/88910_helenthomas29.shtml) 'Cause secret locations make it okay? Some do stay in the Lincoln “bedroom” (Lincoln’s old cabinet room). [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm) And the Bush I sold it out to none other than pay for play’s number one death trumps convict Ken Lay. [http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/](http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/). But you are quiet about that too. Limbaugh used to complain about it until he was invited. Reagan used to have donors over to the White House for dinners, so did Nixon and Carter. [Best Mother’s Day Gifts 2021 | 31 Unique Mother’s Day Gift Ideas | Observer](http://www.observer.com/node/43433) But its only disgusting when Democrats do it? That seems a tad hypocritical. Almost everyone has done it and it’s legal and not against the rules. Where are they supposed to stay? The Ramada? > > Do you guys ever choke on the depths of your hypocrisy? How about making Jeff Gannon, prostitute cum reporter, an unsigned in guest at the White House hundreds of times. The chirping of crickets. As I’ve said and will continue to say, “The 'Pubs can dish it out but they can’t take it.” And as others have said, “When did the party of personal responsibility become a bunch of whiny little bitches?” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/26 "2008-09-14T03:01:09Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Ah yes, how soon we forget that GHWBush did the same thing and you remained quiet. Or that Bush Il Jong II lets donors of over $100,000 stay in the White House, but refuses to say where. [Client Challenge](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/88910_helenthomas29.shtml) 'Cause secret locations make it okay? Some do stay in the Lincoln “bedroom” (Lincoln’s old cabinet room). [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0310-04.htm) And the Bush I sold it out to none other than pay for play’s number one death trumps convict Ken Lay. [http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/](http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/col/spinsanity/2002/02/21/lincoln/). But you are quiet about that too. Limbaugh used to complain about it until he was invited. Reagan used to have donors over to the White House for dinners, so did Nixon and Carter. [Best Mother’s Day Gifts 2021 | 31 Unique Mother’s Day Gift Ideas | Observer](http://www.observer.com/node/43433) But its only disgusting when Democrats do it? That seems a tad hypocritical. Almost everyone has done it and it’s legal and not against the rules. Where are they supposed to stay? The Ramada? > > Do you guys ever choke on the depths of your hypocrisy? How about making Jeff Gannon, prostitute cum reporter, an unsigned in guest at the White House hundreds of times. The chirping of crickets. I am not sure what you are babbling on about because TVeblen is criticizing the sale by the army of image rights done under this Administration which I am led to believe is Republican (please correct me if I am mistaken or I have been misled in this regard). In any case, the renting out of White House rooms in exchange for large contributions or other political favors looks really bad in my eyes no matter who does it and I agree it is a form of prostitution practiced by both parties. It is something that if it were done by any other country Americans would sneer with superiority and call it corruption but since it is done by their own governments then it must be OK. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/27 "2008-09-14T03:01:22Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Do you guys ever choke on the depths of your hypocrisy? **Veb**! You’re a “you guys”! Congratulations! I’ll tell **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/28 "2008-09-14T03:20:05Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Ah yes, how soon we forget that GHWBush did the same thing and you remained quiet. Did she? And how would you know that? I’m beginning to see your dilemma **TVeblen**. Criticize a “conservative” figure/policy/adminstration and they throw _liberal_ at you as a vile epithet. Criticize a “liberal” figure/policy/administration and someone implies you are part of some _conservative_ cabal. Guess you’ll just never win. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/29 "2008-09-14T03:30:02Z")
Sears lost Martha Stewart to Macy’s, so they decided to call in the infantry. All’s fair in marketing and war, eh? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/30 "2008-09-14T03:38:29Z")
I hate this, and I don’t understand it. I served in the Third Armored Division in Germany (Spearhead), and I’d be pissed if just any old somebody could buy my unit patch on a shirt. Those patches, insignia, etc are supposed to mean something, you earned something, not some fashion statement. For shame Army, selling out. Perhaps drawing down the troop presence in Iraq would help you make your budget, although repairing and replacing all your lost vehicles that have been in the desert for 5 years is going to cost a fortune. I worry about our readiness when a true threat to our homeland comes into play. Iran, Russia, etc, as possible candidates for a bigger war than we just went through. If I had served in the Big Red One I would feel cheapened by this. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/31 "2008-09-14T03:44:58Z")
Soldiers are mercenaries, protecting the economic interests of their country overseas – why would they be offended at this? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/32 "2008-09-14T03:48:11Z")
> [@Stringer](#): > > Soldiers are mercenaries, protecting the economic interests of their country overseas – why would they be offended at this? Because that’s not how we view ourselves (or at least most of us don’t, when I was in). We represent our country and our units, and many of these units have a history dating back many years and this marketing effort cheapens it. Your unit is part of your military identity, and if you take your job as a servicemember seriously, you know your unit’s history and want to uphold it. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/33 "2008-09-14T03:54:38Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because that’s not how we view ourselves (or at least most of us don’t, when I was in). We represent our country and our units, and many of these units have a history dating back many years and this marketing effort cheapens it. > > Your unit is part of your military identity, and if you take your job as a servicemember seriously, you know your unit’s history and want to uphold it. I know this is what they propagandize, but you were a mercenary, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/34 "2008-09-14T03:54:55Z")
[QUOTE=Spartydog] As I’ve said and will continue to say, “The 'Pubs can dish it out but they can’t take it.” And as others have said, “When did the party of personal responsibility become a bunch of whiny little bitches?” [/QUOTE] Sigh. Shot by both sides. As usual. I’m not a Republican. I’m an Independent. Republicans just got through yelling for my head in another thread. No exaggeration. The reason I didn’t mention those other instances–which really suck, btw–is because I didn’t know about them. No excuse; I’m just not a political wonk. Or much of a news fan either, apparently. Ken Lay in the Lincoln bedroom. Okay, _now_ I’m really gonna hurl. And it sounds like whoring out the White House is a well-established practice. It’s reasonable to put up visiting dignitaries but c’mon, the place isn’t a Motel Six. I remember reading about Churchill being put in the Lincoln bedroom circa WWII (the WH was renovated under–Truman?) but he wandered around nude. Apparently he was a terrible insomniac, slept in the buff and he’d be struck by great ideas in the wee hours he just had to share. Apropos of nothing, really, and maybe not even true. It just seems a neat ‘extra’ for the WH, genuinely notable people staying there and adding their story too. But using it as glorified B&B for every jerk and yahoo with money or nfluence–yuck. It’s a _loathsome_ practice. Damn every single one of them who did it. And it sounds like just about all of them did. DAMN. My few remaining illusions are crumbling fast. Probably just as well. But _damn_ anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/35 "2008-09-14T03:58:50Z")
> [@Stringer](#): > > Soldiers are mercenaries, protecting the economic interests of their country overseas – why would they be offended at this? I’m not. It doesn’t bother me in the least. I don’t see the big deal everyone is making it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/36 "2008-09-14T04:16:53Z")
To expand just a bit, this kind of shit has been used for free by any mom n pop shirt company that wanted to use it. The Army–and the soldiers–receive nothing for it. If the Army want’s to issue official licenses for various logos and receive royalties that go back to the Army budget, the MWR, or what have you, then I am all for it. Maybe after some company receives an official license, they will pursue all the leeches out there and stop them from freely using that particular logo. This would ensure any use of a military unit’s logos or motos in retail merchandise would equal financial contributions to the military and soldiers. The ability for Johnny Wanna-Be to wear shirts decorated with Army unit logos is NOTHING NEW! The only thing different is now the military gets some of the action. Big fucking deal. This hasn’t _created_ any ability for “unworthy” people to freely wear and disgrace the logos of prestigious Army units. This deal has turned that niche market into some positive cash flow that might just go back to directly benefit the troops. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, check out the advertisements in any of the squirreliest magazines out there–Soldier of Fortune, Guns and Ammo, etc, etc… Pretty much any publication with a gun, a knife, or a deer on the cover is going to have dozens of companies advertising clothing emblazened with Army logos and motos. Now some of the profits of those ridiculous shirts will go back to the soldiers. [http://www.frankyfashion.com/product.aspx?pf\_id=6080](http://www.frankyfashion.com/product.aspx?pf_id=6080) [http://www.hooahshirts.com/sealtrident.html](http://www.hooahshirts.com/sealtrident.html) [http://www.hooahshirts.com/rangershirt.html](http://www.hooahshirts.com/rangershirt.html) [http://www.hooahshirts.com/forcerecon.html](http://www.hooahshirts.com/forcerecon.html) [http://www.hooahshirts.com/specialforcesshirt.html](http://www.hooahshirts.com/specialforcesshirt.html) ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/37 "2008-09-14T04:18:39Z")
[QUOTE=Stringer] Soldiers are mercenaries, protecting the economic interests of their country overseas – why would they be offended at this? [/QUOTE] The hell they are. My dad was an Army master sergeant during WWII. He was pushing the age limit for enlistment, had a fine job, a wife, and was a very easy-going sort. He enlisted anyway because this country had been attacked and, in the words of an old history prof, “There were monsters abroad in the world.” Governments haven’t always used their militaries wisely or well but that reflects on _them_–and the people who gave them power–but soldiers are not mercenaries. That’s cheap, easy cynicism and it doesn’t reflect well on you either. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m beginning to see your dilemma TVeblen. > > Guess you’ll just never win. Shaping up that way, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/38 "2008-09-14T04:21:33Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > The hell they are. > > My dad was an Army master sergeant during WWII. He was pushing the age limit for enlistment, had a fine job, a wife, and was a very easy-going sort. He enlisted anyway because this country had been attacked and, in the words of an old history prof, “There were monsters abroad in the world.” > > Governments haven’t always used their militaries wisely or well but that reflects on _them_–and the people who gave them power–but soldiers are not mercenaries. That’s cheap, easy cynicism and it doesn’t reflect well on you either. > Shaping up that way, isn’t it? I love the WWII defense. There was **one** WWII, and no U.S. solider after that war was a hero. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/39 "2008-09-14T04:33:27Z")
> [@Stringer](#): > > I love the WWII defense. There was **one** WWII, and no U.S. solider after that war was a hero. Whatever **DerTrihs.** If you cannot grasp the concept of the “citizen-soldier” as layed out by Sylvanus Thayer, which still applies today (with college money, even!) then you just won’t understand until you do it yourself. The soldier doesn’t have the luxury of choosing which wars are worth fighting for. He or she simply volunteered for service (perhaps we should have a draft again, or a conscript military?) and gets caught in the breech if there’s a conflict. There’s no \*soul-selling \*like you portray, other than possibly having to kill someone before they kill you, which is more of a \*soul-searching \*issue than a soul-selling one. But hey, keep spewing your vitriol! Someone out there on tha intertubes may believe you!!1111!!!1111 ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474/40 "2008-09-14T04:36:32Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Whatever **DerTrihs.** > > If you cannot grasp the concept of the “citizen-soldier” as layed out by Sylvanus Thayer, which still applies today (with college money, even!) then you just won’t understand until you do it yourself. > > The soldier doesn’t have the luxury of choosing which wars are worth fighting for. He or she simply volunteered for service (perhaps we should have a draft again, or a conscript military?) and gets caught in the breech if there’s a conflict. > > There’s no \*soul-selling \*like you portray, other than possibly having to kill someone before they kill you, which is more of a \*soul-searching \*issue than a soul-selling one. > > But hey, keep spewing your vitriol! Someone out there on tha intertubes may believe you!!1111!!!1111 I love how it’s soooooo important to you to have murder be heroic, killing them before they kill you! On their soil! That’s rich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-army-sells-the-big-red-one-to-sears/463474.md?page=3)