# The arrogance of the left-wing **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 15, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037 "2016-11-15T04:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/21 "2016-11-15T17:39:45Z")
Twenty years is “quick”? What are you, three hundred and eighty years old? ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/22 "2016-11-16T04:07:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also, on the subject of liberal elitism there are a couple of factors. Maybe this isn’t conductive to an actual debate but here is how I personally feel. > > 1. Truth is, ideally, more valid than lies. > > 2. Taking away the rights of the weak is worse than defending them. > > Deep down almost all the claims of elitism against liberals come to those two points. > > Creationism is not as valid as evolution. Claiming climate change is a hoax is not as valid as claiming the science is consistent. Claiming Obama is a Muslim is not as valid as claiming Trump is an authoritarian. Trump claiming the election is rigged based on zero evidence is not as valid as leftists claiming the elections is rigged due to Russian espionage, fbi interference and state level voter suppression efforts. Claiming Clinton is a liar because she lied about 26% of the time isn’t as valid as calling Trump a liar for lying about 70% of the time according to politifact. I don’t think those are really relevant issues?, they seem really just contingent. I’d say being in favor of gay marriage is as valid as being against it, being in favor of the right to own guns is as valid as being against it. > [@](#): > > On to the second point,ehst would you have us say? Maybe insults are not conductive to debate but generally liberals are egalitarian and conservatives are not. How are liberals trying to take away the rights of conservatives? We haven’t taken their guns away. But conservatives are trying to take away the right to vote, to make your own medical decisions, the right to marry, etc from people. If you look at us society, it is really only conservative who are trying to take away other people’s rights. Someone please explain if or how that view is wrong. > > The right has conspiracy theories about fema camps, gun roundups, a fantasy war on Christmas etc. The left has evidence of voter suppression, opposition to gay marriage, a real war on Islam, etc. The right has fantasies of being persecuted. The left has evidence of being persecuted. They are not the same. You know, something that made mean lean away from the left was precisely the whole voter ID laws discussion… The left is against certain rights (if we want to call them that): guns ownership (yeah, they haven’t taken away people’s guns… but not because they wouldn’t like to) and free speech, of the top of my head. Of course theft has evidence of opposition to gay marriage, there are a lot of people who oppose it. But instead of using arguments, the left usually just shouts “homophobe!”, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. I for example am in favor of gay rights, marriage, etc., but I don’t see why should it be an invalid opinion to think otherwise. I don’ think the right to marry is a given fact beyond discussion. Plus if I’m right, surely I can find some actual arguments to use?. > [@](#): > > Liberals can take it too far, shouting down people who point out actual facts about minority groups or vulnerable groups as bigots. Blacks commit more crimes in the US. Muslims in Europe commit more sex crimes. Poor people abuse and neglect their children more and have higher domestic violence rates. Non whites get more welfare per capita. > > I think this is a mistake we make. In Europe the refusal of the left to admit that Muslim migrants are committing crimes, especially sex crimes, at higher rates is making people upset. The problem I guess the left has is that these facts can be used s to further oppress these groups. So we do about down people who point them out. This, definitely. Hell, in Germany the pólice and the press tried to hide the mass sexual attacks on New Year’s eve. You (a general you) cannot just manipulate facts to get a desired outcome or avoid one perceived as negative. It’s intelectually dishonest, and people do pick up on this. What ends up happening is that people like Le Pen grow in popularity, because they’re the ones expressing concerns that mainstream politicians refuse to aknowledge. > [@](#): > > If we are wrong, please show us why. Many of us are more open minded than you give us credit for. Is it just that whenever we try to discuss issues with the right mostly we get conspiracy theories and misinformation. > > Why is our elitism wrong? A lot of us feel our elitism us because our opinions are more moral and factually accurate than what we are given from the other side of the aisle. Why is that incorrect? Many are more open minded, but not most imo. This attitude, this refusal to engage in debate, is wrong because it’s arrogant and anti-democratic… and it’s also wrong from a tactical point of view. Shouting down people who disagree isn’t going to change anyone’s opinión, even if it makes the one doing the shouting feel better about himself. This is something I saw a lot when I was very involved with animal rights groups some years ago. Anyone who wasn’t a vegetarian (hell, a vegan), was an idiot or an evil person. You know, I’m a vegetarian but I don’t go around calling omnivores murderers. PS: Sorry if this post was a little disjointed. Have barely slept and it’s late. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/23 "2016-11-16T04:13:09Z")
I’ve lost track - which is the side that has bad \*ideas \*and which is the side that has bad _people_? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/24 "2016-11-16T04:15:27Z")
By the way, if the OP knows of a non-homophobic reason to oppose gay marriage, please share because I asked a few people on this board and never got one. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/25 "2016-11-16T04:28:20Z")
Is it arrogant to assume you know more than climate scientists, physicists, evolutionary biologists, geologists, paleontologists, etc. because you read (but probably didn’t read) parts of the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/26 "2016-11-16T04:42:28Z")
Nope, this is a straw man getting trotted out a lot right now There was no complacency among democrat supporters. Trump winning was “unthinkable” in the sense of someone with that temperament and (lack of) experience being president was hard to imagine, but very few people were actually saying Clinton had the election sewn up. And it’s not ignorance that makes me despise trump and what he stands for. I watch Fox news every day for example…I always like to get both sides of a story. It just happens that the Trump / Giuliani / Hannity side is based on lies, both wilful and of the “people are saying” variety. But it works. This is what I’ve been saying in other threads: how well you can sell a factoid is now more important than whether it’s true. Ideas are just click-bait. ---
**Author:** ![OriginalGangster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea5d25/32.png) [@OriginalGangster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OriginalGangster)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/27 "2016-11-16T05:05:21Z")
The election was a massive psy-op or troll job, depending on how you choose to look at it. For instance, how many on the right, can openly admit that if Trump had “won” the popular but lost the electoral - that they wouldn’t be upset? Very few. Believe it or not, this data has been quantified & it’s under 0.01%. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/28 "2016-11-16T05:39:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There was no complacency among democrat supporters. Are you sure? In 2008, Obama won 69,456,897 votes. This go-around, Hillary won 60,981,118 (as of the current count) [cite](http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/popular-vote-clinton-trump-hillary-2016-2012-2008-uncounted-ballots-electoral-college-presidential-election-results-california/). That is one helluva difference. Are you sure Democrats were not complacent, or maybe not inspired, having their rightful nomination of Bernie snatched away from them by a hostile Establishment? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/29 "2016-11-16T07:08:55Z")
Only “rightful nomination” that got snatched away was Biden’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/30 "2016-11-16T08:35:56Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Are you sure? In 2008, Obama won 69,456,897 votes. This go-around, Hillary won 60,981,118 (as of the current count) [cite](http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/popular-vote-clinton-trump-hillary-2016-2012-2008-uncounted-ballots-electoral-college-presidential-election-results-california/). That is one helluva difference. Are you sure Democrats were not complacent, or maybe not inspired, having their rightful nomination of Bernie snatched away from them by a hostile Establishment? I was saying there is no evidence of complacency and dropping a lot of votes doesn’t in itself prove otherwise, especially in an election with lower turnout overall. I was mostly railing against the post-hoc “we thought we had it in the bag!” that I’m hearing in so many places. I read a lot of pre-election predictions and I don’t recall anyone putting it like that. It was always at risk and that’s why we were so panicked. There was a point where Trump’s poll numbers slumped and the chance of Hillary getting it was put as high as 85%, but that’s the nature of probabilities, they can change as circumstances (and our knowledge) changes. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/31 "2016-11-16T10:05:18Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > I don’t think those are really relevant issues? Climate change is likely to cause hundreds of thousands of additional deaths per year in the coming decades. That’s relevant. Our students being taught religious dogma instead of the science they need to understand medicine - that’s relevant. Consistent failures of public perception leading to a great many people voting for an unqualified, dishonest con man - that’s _definitely_ relevant. > [@](#): > > , they seem really just contingent. I’d say being in favor of gay marriage is as valid as being against it, being in favor of the right to own guns is as valid as being against it. Reasons for gay marriage: expanding the institution of marriage, with its myriad social and financial benefits, to include a group of people formerly refused access without good reason Reasons against gay marriage: …I got nothing. Do you have a good reason? The religious right kept fishing for a decent one in Obergfell and _they_ had nothing. Reasons for gun laws: personal freedom, potential empirical data regarding self-defense and protection Reasons against gun laws: potential empirical data regarding gun violence and death I’m not going to disagree with you on gun laws. I feel like this is an issue the democrats should just drop and give up. It’s not worth losing such a huge chunk of dedicated single-issue voters - even if those voters are essentially nutbags - and it’s never going to happen. > [@](#): > > You know, something that made mean lean away from the left was precisely the whole voter ID laws discussion… Voter disenfranchisement is considerably more common than in-person impersonation voter fraud, the only kind of voter fraud that voter ID laws cover. The latter almost never happens. The former happens _all the time_. Voter ID laws are a bad idea that try to fix a fake problem by making it that much harder for people, mostly young, old, minorities, and the very poor, to vote. Hell, in North Carolina we just got a blatant example of [how racist these laws can be](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/north-carolina-voter-id-law-overturned-racially-discriminatory-intent/) - but really, the goal is just to depress turnout for the democrats. Even if this malicious intent weren’t obvious from how the laws are designed and the statements of various republican politicians, this is, once again, a case where the republican view is not evidence-based, does not comport to the facts, and does more harm than good. Pointing that out does not count as “elitism” and should not be seen as such. > [@](#): > > The left is against certain rights (if we want to call them that): guns ownership (yeah, they haven’t taken away people’s guns… but not because they wouldn’t like to) and free speech, of the top of my head. Trump campaigned on a promise to open up libel laws and make it easier to sue the press, and has himself abused SLAPP lawsuits constantly, to the point where the American Bar Association commisioned an article on it… [and demanded it be heavily revised so that Trump wouldn’t try to sue them](http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/10/26/13408060/aba-libel-law-trump-abuse-times)! Can you name any “leftist” policy of the past decade that’s remotely as anti-free-speech? I wasn’t aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/32 "2016-11-16T11:13:00Z")
So what happens if the president is declared a vexatious litigant? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/33 "2016-11-16T13:56:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So what happens if the president is declared a vexatious litigant? How dare you use those arrogant, elitist, multisyllabic words? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/34 "2016-11-16T15:19:10Z")
Right now, this lefty would like something to feel arrogant _about_, rather than continuing to feel poleaxed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/35 "2016-11-16T15:27:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Both right-wingers and left-wingers believe in a 1+1 = 2 framework and ridicule anyone whom they perceive as believing that 1+1=3. But they also see things in such a way that their side is the 1+1=2 side and _the other side is the 1+1=3 side._ This may be so. But for instance, the available evidence overwhelmingly says that global warming is real. One party accepts that, the other rejects it. One party believes that big tax cuts for the rich will pay for themselves, the other doesn’t. Again, the evidence is all on one side. One party believes that abstinence education is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy; the other believes that sex education and access to birth control works considerably better. Again, the evidence is with the latter side. The Republican Speaker of the House just said Obamacare has made Medicare less sustainable, when the exact opposite is true: the Medicare trust fund’s life has been extended by 11 years since the passage of Obamacare. And so on and so forth. This isn’t a #bothsidesdoit thing. One side consistently denies reality, the other is trying to address it as it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/36 "2016-11-16T18:40:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So what happens if the president is declared a vexatious litigant? > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > How dare you use those arrogant, elitist, multisyllabic words? I also wish I didn’t have to use “president” regarding Trump, but the voters have spoken. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/37 "2016-11-16T21:15:55Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Only “rightful nomination” that got snatched away was Biden’s. How is that? He did not even run.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/38 "2016-11-16T22:25:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Nope, this is a straw man getting trotted out a lot right now > > There was no complacency among democrat supporters. Trump winning was “unthinkable” in the sense of someone with that temperament and (lack of) experience being president was hard to imagine, but very few people were actually saying Clinton had the election sewn up. > > And it’s not ignorance that makes me despise trump and what he stands for. I watch Fox news every day for example…I always like to get both sides of a story. It just happens that the Trump / Giuliani / Hannity side is based on lies, both wilful and of the “people are saying” variety. > > But it works. This is what I’ve been saying in other threads: how well you can sell a factoid is now more important than whether it’s true. Ideas are just click-bait. How it based on lies?, what would you say are his campaign main points?, Illegal immigration, Islamic terrorism…? ---
**Author:** ![Caldazar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Caldazar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caldazar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/39 "2016-11-17T00:19:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, you want to debate the candidates on their merit? All right, be my guest. What good reason is there to vote for Trump? What will he achieve, policy-wise, that is a good idea for the country? And while you’re at it, maybe you’d like to argue in support of the right-wing position on climate change. And the debt ceiling. Seriously? I mean, I tend to support a number of “leftist” positions generally, but this type of attitude is really annoying. You cannot seriously say you can’t understand the “right-wing” on these issue. You may not agree with the positions and in a number of cases, the positions may in fact be rationally bankrupt, but you seriously don’t know the answers to your questions? That’s like saying you don’t understand why Celine Dion is so popular because you think her music sucks. Trump: Trump’s message resonates and makes people feel good about themselves. Clinton’s message does not resonate and does not make people feel good about themselves. Trump will, likely, achieve nothing that benefits the poorer/working classes with whom his message resonates because his policy positions, if he even really has any, are nonsense. But do you seriously believe that a majority of his supporters are that stupid and don’t know that he’s full of it? Of course they are aware; it’s been documented in newspapers and other media that they are quite aware. But if your choices are between a liar who makes you feel good for a little while, and a (relatively) truthful establishment politician that will do little to help you and doesn’t make you feel good, then the choice makes sense. Michael Moore had it right; you vote Trump because then you get to feel good for one day before you have to go back to your misery. Climate Change: Climate change will cause temperatures and sea levels to rise to varying degrees, depending on which climate change model turns out to be most accurate. This will gradually cause human suffering, and the suffering will get worse over time. Combating climate change now will cost resources and retard economic growth, which will cause human suffering now. People try to avoid unpleasant things for as long as possible. Outright denial is an extension of this, a way to deceive oneself into avoiding unpleasant realities. Debt Ceiling: Taking on increasing debt increases risk of future financial instability. So you should not take on increasing debt unless it is strongly justified, to minimize your future risk. And you should discourage taking on additional debt unless strongly justified, by the same token. And yes, the “right-wing” are skillful liars who squawk about controlling debt and don’t mean a damn word of it. The arrogance, if that’s even the correct word for it, is that human beings should somehow aspire to be highly rational beings who don’t let their emotions get in the way, and that those who hold this view do not allow themselves to try to extend empathy and understanding towards others who don’t share this goal. Because of course, if you don’t share the view that logic and rationality are the greatest of virtues, there must be something wrong with you. This was Clinton’s arrogance, in a nutshell. Objectively, she was the more qualified, between her and Trump. Why are people so stupid? “Why aren’t I 50 points ahead?” Because she, and I would argue some people here, have a fundamental misunderstanding of how human beings work. And they are too damn arrogant to correct that misunderstanding and modify their behavior in order to influence others in an effective manner. It’s easier just to call them stupid and write them off as hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/40 "2016-11-17T00:21:13Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > It’s one of the most unappealing aspects of it, and it’s been in full display with the whole elections thing, including on this fórum… so many people are so completely certain they are right and so whoever disagrees with them is evil, fascist, racist, homophobe, or at the very least, an idiot. > > Not even considering the possibility that they might themselves, you know, be wrong. > > Watched a short video someone posted on Twitter the other day about just this, and it was so spot on: the left refuses to engage in debate. They just label and insult. > > Not to mention the absurd alarmism, talk of a nuclear war and what not… seems to many democracy is fine as long as their side wins. And free speech exists only for the “right” ideas. > > This kind of attitude only helps the likes of Trump win popularity. Hey Cristii, get out of your bubble and go read the comments of a breitbart article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037.md?page=3)