# The arrogance of the left-wing **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 15, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037 "2016-11-15T04:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/41 "2016-11-17T00:23:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At least there is no talk of secession. [![](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/000/681/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg) ](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/000/681/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg) #CalExit for life !!! ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/42 "2016-11-17T00:35:15Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. The left is all about moral relativism, remember? No firm moral foundations, left adrift in the wind without God to guide them. If people in Alabama want to teach creationism or ban gay marriage that’s just their culture. To say that you know better than them is imperialism. > > Those old Jesusland maps from 2004 could still work. Yes and no. The far left believes in relativism but that is under assault by liberals. It’s harder for us though, we do not get to rely on that sloppy and tattered crutch of “Because God said so” Which LITERALLY is the same justification for someone to help the needy or say… Saw an infidels head off. Well, my GOD said so so I guess I’d better oblige. This is the ethics and morality of a SLAVE, not an autonomous moral agent, not someone who refuses to bend the knee like a DOG not a MAN. So yes, it’s harder, there is no universal standard of ethics, it IS relative on a cosmic scale, but we are not random cosmic creatures. We are humans, we have evolved over the eons with a common collection of intuitions and behavioral heuristics. There is variation to be sure, but most people are inside the line of SOME common themes. And when they are not, we have the outliers like psychopaths and sociopaths, where something is LITERALLY wrong with their brains (thanks god, so benevolent in his gifts to his children that he saddles them with moral intuitions that are the opposite of what he demands). Cultures emerged as more and more people gathered and in modern times our morality and ethics is a blend of how we were wired over thousands and millions of years by nature, and the cultural software that combines the two aspects into a whole. This is the source of all ethics, religious or otherwise. And while there is no absolute standard, there are some standards that tend to lead to more human hapiness and flourishing than others, assuming we can agree on what those things are. And if we cannot, for example I do NOT consider being beheaded for not believing in Allah a good thing, then we can agree to disagree, with my side killing the other to rid the world of discordant moral codes that are incompatible so that my side wins and theirs does not. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/43 "2016-11-17T00:45:37Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > It’s one of the most unappealing aspects of it, and it’s been in full display with the whole elections thing, including on this fórum… so many people are so completely certain they are right and so whoever disagrees with them is evil, fascist, racist, homophobe, or at the very least, an idiot. We’ve been here for quite a while. You’re here for… Six whole posts. So, which label are are you that you’re trying to weasel out from under here…? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/44 "2016-11-17T01:22:26Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Hey Cristii, get out of your bubble and go read the comments of a breitbart article. Without a warning? You don’t even give out a _warning_?! What _wrong_ with you? Be like you know somebody feeling pretty down, hard time dealing and you say “Here, try this guy Cormac McCarthy, cheer you right up!”. Blows his brains out, its your damn fault! ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/45 "2016-11-17T02:04:49Z")
> [@Caldazar](#): > > The arrogance, if that’s even the correct word for it, is that human beings should somehow aspire to be _highly rational beings_ who don’t let their emotions get in the way, and that those who hold this view do not allow themselves to try to extend empathy and understanding towards others who don’t share this goal. Because of course, if you don’t share the view that logic and rationality are the greatest of virtues, there must be something wrong with you. Do you think that said attitude (highlighted by me) should NOT be one that we can teach all of our citizens, all of our children? One that we should, as a society, value, encourage, and foster? That we should just throw our hands up in the air and just meekly cowtow to our most base impulses? Allow propaganda, fear, hopelessly one-sided bias, and other lower complexes to dominate our thought, and thus our political (and other) outcomes? So, why (and how) have some learned to turn the trick, while others haven’t? I for one DO think there is something wrong with you if you allow these lower impulses to control your life, choices, and destiny. It simply leads to a type of hapless nihilism, made all the more poignant when those who have embraced are unable to see the moral and intellectual emptiness of their positions. [Note I personally do not think they are the “greatest” of virtues, but that is a topic for a completely different thread. They ARE superior to their counterparts I mentioned above.] ---
**Author:** ![OriginalGangster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea5d25/32.png) [@OriginalGangster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OriginalGangster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/46 "2016-11-17T02:09:50Z")
Outside of sociopaths, only a very small percent of people are rational. Herd mentality is simply too inborn of a trait, especially in low-average IQ, which is the majority, regardless of political alignment. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/47 "2016-11-17T02:24:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If only we would follow the shining example of civility and polite discourse that is the very essence of the Donald! Someone who, as my grandmother used to say, wouldn’t say “Shit!” if they suddenly found out they had just taken a spoonful of it. Well, we do have the shining example of The Donald on Twitter: > [@](#): > > Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump > We can’t let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our nation is totally divided! > 11:29 PM - 6 Nov 2012 > [@](#): > > Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump > Lets fight like hell and stop this great and disgusting injustice! The world is laughing at us. > 11:30 PM - 6 Nov 2012 > [@](#): > > Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump > This election is a total sham and a travesty. We are not a democracy! > 11:33 PM - 6 Nov 2012 > [@](#): > > Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump > Our country is now in serious and unprecedented trouble…like never before. > 11:39 PM - 6 Nov 2012 > [@](#): > > Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump > The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy. > 11:45 PM - 6 Nov 2012 To say nothing of his eight years pretending that Obama was not a U.S. citizen. And [In case people forgot how peacefully people accepted Obama’s election in ’08.](http://imgur.com/gallery/Y7Zpt) ---
**Author:** ![Caldazar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Caldazar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caldazar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/48 "2016-11-17T02:49:02Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Do you think that said attitude (highlighted by me) should NOT be one that we can teach all of our citizens, all of our children? One that we should, as a society, value, encourage, and foster? That we should just throw our hands up in the air and just meekly cowtow to our most base impulses? Allow propaganda, fear, hopelessly one-sided bias, and other lower complexes to dominate our thought, and thus our political (and other) outcomes? > > So, why (and how) have some learned to turn the trick, while others haven’t? “Greatest of virtues” was a poor choice of words on my part; I agree that “superior virtue” is probably a more moderate way to express the idea. I simply don’t believe it’s possible to teach a large portion of a society to be reasonably strong rational thinkers, however you choose to define “reasonably strong”. Rational thinking is very difficult, and being reliably good at it is a rather rare trait in my opinion. Even in my limited experience in structured “intellectual pursuits” (chess, math, science), this seems to be a difficult skill to cultivate among myself and my peers; it’s just incredibly difficult to maintain the mental discipline required for any reasonable length of time (i.e. many minutes straight). Nevermind trying to walk around and live life generally as a rational being. Yes, we should make the attempt to teach critical thinking, if only to arm people with another potential tool with which to try to understand the world and live in it. But I don’t really expect much success, not because people are inherently stupid, but because it’s just really difficult to develop the skill. So yes, I do think we’re “stuck” following our “base impulses” to a large degree, and we should learn how to best navigate life under those limitations. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/49 "2016-11-17T03:08:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This may be so. But for instance, the available evidence overwhelmingly says that global warming is real. One party accepts that, the other rejects it. One party believes that big tax cuts for the rich will pay for themselves, the other doesn’t. Again, the evidence is all on one side. One party believes that abstinence education is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy; the other believes that sex education and access to birth control works considerably better. Again, the evidence is with the latter side. The Republican Speaker of the House just said Obamacare has made Medicare less sustainable, when the exact opposite is true: the Medicare trust fund’s life has been extended by 11 years since the passage of Obamacare. And so on and so forth. > > This isn’t a #bothsidesdoit thing. One side consistently denies reality, the other is trying to address it as it exists. Well, this kinda post proves my point. You are just SO sure you’re the ones who are right, that “reality” is on your side. Most things, my friend, aren’t that simple at all. All the evidence isn’t anywhere near as one sided on all those issues you mention as you say… and those aren’t at all the only issues either. Abortion?, guns?, crime policies?, immigration?, terrorism?, free speech?. Look, we all think we’re right. We wouldn’t hold an opinion about something to begin with, otherwise. But we all should accept the possibility that we just _might_, possibly, be wrong. We’re not talking about issues as uncontested as the Earth being not being flat here. The idea that your side (whochever side that is) has the uncontested REALITY is actually also very dangerous, for free speech and democracy itself. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/50 "2016-11-17T03:12:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, we do have the shining example of The Donald on Twitter: > To say nothing of his eight years pretending that Obama was not a U.S. citizen. > > And [In case people forgot how peacefully people accepted Obama’s election in ’08.](http://imgur.com/gallery/Y7Zpt) Is any of that worse than what the never Trump folks are saying and doing now? ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/51 "2016-11-17T03:19:41Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > We’ve been here for quite a while. > You’re here for… Six whole posts. > > So, which label are are you that you’re trying to weasel out from under here…? I don’t understand your question. And how does it matter how long I’ve been posting here?. I’ve, for that matter, lurked for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/52 "2016-11-17T03:34:11Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > Is any of that worse than what the never Trump folks are saying and doing now? I haven’t seen Trump burned in effigy, yet. I have NOT seen Obama attacking Trump subsequent to the election. I have seen Trump supporters hypocritically claiming that Clinton supporters should stop protesting. Overall worse? Perhaps not. However, anyone whining that the “other side” lacks civility needs to go clean up their own side before expecting anyone to listen to them. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/53 "2016-11-17T03:37:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think one reason for this arrogance (which, of course, many on the political right also display, but this thread is about the left) is because, despite all the recent philosophical fads about solipsism and “there is no objective truth or morality”, people still, overwhelmingly, by and large, do believe that objective truth exists and that a moral right and moral wrong still exist. Yeah. There being an objective truth and moral right and wrong (and I share the thought that there is such a thing) though, doesn’t mean that we know it. Or that it’s even possible to. > [@](#): > > Therefore liberals and leftists, for the most part, are driven by a strong sense of moral right/wrong and desire for “truth” as they see it to be upheld and furthered. Same is true for many right-wingers, but the reason I think left-wingers are more arrogant these days is because they have greater numbers and that, in the near future, the trends favor them (the political left will likely only continue to grow in strength in the decades ahead, and has already been growing for decades.) > > Both right-wingers and left-wingers believe in a 1+1 = 2 framework and ridicule anyone whom they perceive as believing that 1+1=3. But they also see things in such a way that their side is the 1+1=2 side and _the other side is the 1+1=3 side._ True. But I’ve changed my political opinions, a lot, more than once in my life, and I do find the left to display this attitude to a greater degree, and to manifest it more in a refusal to engage in debate at all. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/54 "2016-11-17T03:41:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I haven’t seen Trump burned in effigy, yet. I have NOT seen Obama attacking Trump subsequent to the election. I have seen Trump supporters hypocritically claiming that Clinton supporters should stop protesting. Obama has to act like a President. His attitude should be different from that of a common citizen, which Trump was then. Doubt that Trump represents the general attitude of people of the right wing, either. I don’t think the left even thinks he does. > [@](#): > > Overall worse? Perhaps not. However, anyone whining that the “other side” lacks civility needs to go clean up their own side before expecting anyone to listen to them. I don’t think so. No one could say anything if that was the case. ---
**Author:** ![Crisstti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Crisstti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crisstti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/55 "2016-11-17T03:58:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, you want to debate the candidates on their merit? All right, be my guest. What good reason is there to vote for Trump? What will he achieve, policy-wise, that is a good idea for the country? And while you’re at it, maybe you’d like to argue in support of the right-wing position on climate change. And the debt ceiling. My post refered to an attitude that goes well beyond this election in the US. I don’t feel the need to defend myself anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/56 "2016-11-17T03:59:09Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > Of course theft has evidence of opposition to gay marriage, there are a lot of people who oppose it. But instead of using arguments, the left usually just shouts “homophobe!”, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. I for example am in favor of gay rights, marriage, etc., but I don’t see why should it be an invalid opinion to think otherwise. I don’ think the right to marry is a given fact beyond discussion. Plus if I’m right, surely I can find some actual arguments to use? Opposition to SSM is fundamentally rooted in bigotry against homosexuals. It is predicated on the assumption that homosexual relationships are inherently less valuable than heterosexual relationships - even the “softest” opponents base their opposition on a fear that allowing gay people to marry will somehow be damaging to the fabric of society. Notably, they are generally unable to explain the exact mechanism by which this will take place. Harder opposition generally is accompanied by slanders, such as comparisons to bestiality and pedophilia, or dismissal of homosexual relationships not being based on “real” love. The idea that gay marriage is directly related to hurricanes hitting the US remains a position espoused by mainstream conservative figures. Having spent close to two decades arguing those specific points with a variety of homophobes of different stripes, I admit that I sometimes cut to the chase and just go straight to calling them names. It is, perhaps, not the most constructive option, but dealing with the same bullshit, over and over and over again, tends to wear on the patience a bit. I apologize that your feelings are occasionally hurt because I’m in genuine fear for my rights and personal safety. Clearly, your needs are the major concern, here, and I’m sorry for losing sight of that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/57 "2016-11-17T04:32:51Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > How it based on lies?, what would you say are his campaign main points?, Illegal immigration, Islamic terrorism…? Where to start? Firstly we have the birther thing where lots of assertions were made by trump e.g. that no american met / knew Obama in his youth, then years later when the whole thing had become an embarrassment he just told the shamefaced lie that it had all originated from Hillary. Then you have nonsense like seeing thousands of muslim americans celebrating on 9/11, or saying obama pledged to take 250,000 syrian refugees. Or saying we don’t vet immigrants or refugees at all. Or that allied countries including south korea don’t pay us for stationing military forces there. Or that the vast majority of murders of white people are by black men…notice how inflammatory many of these lies are. And that he can’t release his tax returns because of the audit, which of course he continued to say even after the IRS said it wasn’t true. And in this campaign you have a whole mess of crap, mostly just to paint a picture of an america falling apart domestically and a whipping boy abroad. So we are supposedly “giving Iran $150 billion plus”, unemployment is up, crime is up. And note I didn’t just reference trump but the whole machine of trump, his surrogates, Hannity et al, and maybe certain online sites like Breitbart. How can you try to reason with people who’ll happily assert that Afghanistan is “obama’s war”? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/58 "2016-11-17T04:43:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I was saying there is no evidence of complacency and dropping a lot of votes doesn’t in itself prove otherwise, especially in an election with lower turnout overall. > > I was mostly railing against the post-hoc “we thought we had it in the bag!” that I’m hearing in so many places. I read a lot of pre-election predictions and I don’t recall anyone putting it like that. It was always at risk and that’s why we were so panicked. > There was a point where Trump’s poll numbers slumped and the chance of Hillary getting it was put as high as 85%, but that’s the nature of probabilities, they can change as circumstances (and our knowledge) changes. Well, HuffPo said Hillary had if sewn up. Some gambling sites paid out Hillary bettors before the vote. I recall Anderson Cooper discussing whether Hillary was running up the score campaigning in red states. Wang said he’d eat a bug if Trump got more than 240 electoral votes, giving Hillary a 99% chance of victory. Don’t you remember that? He ate a bug on CNN. There are different ways to interpret low turnout. What jumps out at me though is that while Trump got a hundred thousand or so less votes than Romney, Clinton got millions less votes than Obama. Why didn’t Dem voters show up? Complacency is one explanation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/59 "2016-11-17T06:21:54Z")
Somehow, a way must be found so that Trump is _our_ fault. Reverse engineered, starting from the conclusion and working backwards, weaving a complex and fragile web of assumptions and evasions. The Cirque du Soleil of rationalization. So, OK, fine. Its transparently stupid, but you never cared what we thought about you anyway, right? What is it now, some sixty percent of _everybody_ thinks he _très suxxor_? Probably his high water mark! Probably if there ever was a way to rid ourselves of him, you’d tell us it was your idea! Complain how we got in your way! And that’s OK, too. Two weeks ago, we might have cared at least a little. Now, there’s _much_ bigger fish frying us. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037/60 "2016-11-17T06:25:11Z")
> [@Crisstti](#): > > I don’t think so. No one could say anything if that was the case. Most likely, no one should. No one would be permitted to whine about how the other side should behave or make broad condemnations of their opponents that relied more on emotion that facts if that were the case. Overly partisan rhetoric is generally false and self-serving. This election has only re-asserted that fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-arrogance-of-the-left-wing/772037.md?page=4)