# The artist is WRONG about his own work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900 "2014-07-12T00:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/201 "2014-07-21T22:34:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > LOTR maybe, but Narnia? Come on! Aslan dying and being reborn? Very obviously direct one-to-one relationship with Christ. But it’s not an allegory. Yes, it is clear that Aslan is Jesus. That doesn’t make the Narnia books allegories though. There is a philosophical point Lewis was trying to explore in Narnia and his Space Trilogy, which is that Jesus appeared on Earth at a particular time and place, but obviously he didn’t appear on Mars or Venus. So given that Earth isn’t the only place in the Universe, what does that mean? In the Space Trilogy Jesus appears on Earth because Earth experienced Original Sin. But Mars didn’t, and while Humans are fallen the inhabitants of Mars aren’t. These books aren’t allegories. What do the talking animals represent? The fauns and river gods and dryads and dwarfs? Aslan=Jesus doesn’t make the books allegorical, any more than Father Christmas showing up in Narnia does. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/202 "2014-07-21T22:34:40Z")
Even if Ridley Scott \*does \*decide whether Deckard was an replicant, the Scott of 1982 gets to make that decision, not the Scott of 2012. The former was a genius filmmaker; the latter is a hack. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/203 "2014-07-21T23:40:21Z")
Another subtle nuance about the definition of “allegory” (and Tolkien and Lewis were both masters of the subtle nuance) is that Aslan, in the Narnia books, doesn’t _represent_ Jesus. In the context of those books, he _is_ Jesus. Lewis’ premise is that the same entity who became a corporeal human in Bethlehem also became a corporeal lion in a different world. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/204 "2014-07-22T00:37:42Z")
> [@eltro102](#): > > That seems more like an isomorphism than allegory, at least nowadays Isn’t isomorphism basically what allegory is? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/205 "2014-07-22T00:42:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another subtle nuance about the definition of “allegory” (and Tolkien and Lewis were both masters of the subtle nuance) is that Aslan, in the Narnia books, doesn’t _represent_ Jesus. In the context of those books, he _is_ Jesus. Lewis’ premise is that the same entity who became a corporeal human in Bethlehem also became a corporeal lion in a different world. Tricky. Since it’s fictional, and not purported to be revealed truth, it’s an allegory. If Lewis actually believed this was literally true, then it would be harder to classify as allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/206 "2014-07-22T13:43:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Tricky. Since it’s fictional, and not purported to be revealed truth, it’s an allegory. > > If Lewis actually believed this was literally true, then it would be harder to classify as allegory. Tell me this - if you’re writing historical fiction, and you include actual historical figures, are they allegorical? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/207 "2014-07-22T20:15:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Tell me this - if you’re writing historical fiction, and you include actual historical figures, are they allegorical? Delicious question! I don’t know! Let me think a bit… Doesn’t it depend on how they’re used? If I write about Abraham Lincoln, and emphasize his resemblance to Christ, then, yeah, that’s allegorical. If I just write about him as the President during the Civil War, then not so much. Doesn’t allegory have to have a point? How can a person be “allegorical” to himself? If that’s the case, every character is allegorical. Hamlet refers to Hamlet. But if Hamlet is said to be comparable to Oedipus (which I don’t believe, but, hey, take it as a hypothetical: there are some similarities!) then that’s an allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/208 "2014-07-22T21:52:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Doesn’t it depend on how they’re used? If I write about Abraham Lincoln, and emphasize his resemblance to Christ, then, yeah, that’s allegorical. If I just write about him as the President during the Civil War, then not so much. What if you write about him as a vampire hunter? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/209 "2014-07-22T22:51:07Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Is the author ever “wrong” about his own work? Not when it comes to events and plot points. > > Rex Stout, creator of Nero Wolfe, was brilliant at creating a world and an atmosphere, but his plots were frequently weak. It often appeared to me that he decided at the last minute who the killer was, without having given the reader any clues. Nonetheless, it’s HIS story. If he “proves” that bartender Larry Schwartz was the killer, then Larry Schwartz is the killer. Stout can’t be 'wrong" about that. We readers may argue "That was a pretty weak solution to the mystery, and we may be correct about that. But the story is the story, and whatever solution Stout wrote down is the “right” ending. But if Rex Stout is interviewed years later, and says that Gary Strauss was the killer, he was wrong - even though it was his own work. Some of the errors people are talking about in this thread are of that kind. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/210 "2014-07-22T22:55:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Thank you, Andy L. You’re quite welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/211 "2014-07-22T22:58:39Z")
> [@eltro102](#): > > That seems more like an isomorphism than allegory, at least nowadays I like that comparison - allegory as Tolkien and Lewis used it, is isomorphism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/212 "2014-07-22T23:02:22Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > But if Rex Stout is interviewed years later, and says that Gary Strauss was the killer, he was wrong - even though it was his own work. Some of the errors people are talking about in this thread are of that kind. In the case of Blade Runner, if _Timothy Hutton_ said Gary Strauss was the killer, he would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/213 "2014-07-22T23:15:14Z")
To put it another way: If I went to Manor Farm, and said to whichever pig it was “Hey, Trotsky!”, the pig wouldn’t respond, because while it represents Trotsky, it isn’t isn’t actually Trotsky. Thus, _Animal Farm_ is an allegory. By contrast, if I went to Narnia and said to Aslan “Hey, Jesus!”, he would reply “Yes, my child?”. Aslan is Jesus, he doesn’t just represent him. In that sense, the Narnia books are not an allegory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/214 "2014-07-22T23:20:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To put it another way: If I went to Manor Farm, and said to whichever pig it was “Hey, Trotsky!”, the pig wouldn’t respond, because while it represents Trotsky, it isn’t isn’t actually Trotsky. Thus, _Animal Farm_ is an allegory. By contrast, if I went to Narnia and said to Aslan “Hey, Jesus!”, he would reply “Yes, my child?”. Aslan is Jesus, he doesn’t just represent him. In that sense, the Narnia books are not an allegory. Interesting but I’d consider Aslan to be Narnia’s Jesus. A quote from the Author from wiki "According to the author, Aslan is not an allegorical portrayal of Christ, but rather a suppositional incarnation of Christ Himself: _If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however, he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, ‘What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?’ This is not allegory at all_.[4] But yes, not a allegory we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/215 "2014-07-23T03:00:50Z")
Is there a point we’re not agreeing on there? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/216 "2014-07-23T03:48:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What if you write about him as a vampire hunter? Grin! Someone was having WAY too much fun. [Also see Time Lincoln, a comic book from Antarctic Press.](http://www.antarctic-press.com/html/version_01/viewitem.php?id=5521) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/217 "2014-07-23T03:50:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To put it another way: If I went to Manor Farm, and said to whichever pig it was “Hey, Trotsky!”, the pig wouldn’t respond, because while it represents Trotsky, it isn’t isn’t actually Trotsky. Thus, _Animal Farm_ is an allegory. By contrast, if I went to Narnia and said to Aslan “Hey, Jesus!”, he would reply “Yes, my child?”. Aslan is Jesus, he doesn’t just represent him. In that sense, the Narnia books are not an allegory. Interesting theory… I personally don’t agree that it would work that way, and I’m not at all convinced that Lewis would agree either. If this is the case…pretty blasphemous, isn’t it? Anyway, the physical guise – the physicality as a lion – is allegorical. Jesus was not that big, was probably bipedal, and didn’t have quite so impressive a mane. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/218 "2014-07-23T04:59:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Interesting theory… I personally don’t agree that it would work that way, and I’m not at all convinced that Lewis would agree either. > > If this is the case…pretty blasphemous, isn’t it? > > Anyway, the physical guise – the physicality as a lion – is allegorical. Jesus was not that big, was probably bipedal, and didn’t have quite so impressive a mane. On earth, yeah, but in Narnia he’s a lion. Just like how Abraham Lincoln, after travelling in time to the 31st Century (under the alias “Isaac Sherwood”), has a cybernetic arm. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/219 "2014-07-23T19:49:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Interesting theory… I personally don’t agree that it would work that way, and I’m not at all convinced that Lewis would agree either. I don’t think that’s so much a “theory” as “definition of what an allegory is.” > [@](#): > > If this is the case…pretty blasphemous, isn’t it? I’m not aware of any injunction in the Church of England against using Jesus as a character in a fictional story, provided it’s handled with appropriate reverence. These are Anglicans we’re talking about, not the Taliban. > [@](#): > > Anyway, the physical guise – the physicality as a lion – is allegorical. Jesus was not that big, was probably bipedal, and didn’t have quite so impressive a mane. It was _symbolical_, for sure, but while allegory is a form of symbolism, not all symbolism is allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/220 "2014-07-23T21:26:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think that’s so much a “theory” as “definition of what an allegory is.” I think he was disagreeing with the idea that aslan would answer to the name of Jesus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=12)