# The artist is WRONG about his own work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900 "2014-07-12T00:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/221 "2014-07-23T22:20:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think he was disagreeing with the idea that aslan would answer to the name of Jesus. Oh, right. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/222 "2014-07-23T23:10:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think he was disagreeing with the idea that aslan would answer to the name of Jesus. True…but I stated it too firmly. A slightly more proper response would have been, “Cite?” i.e., did Lewis ever actually say that Aslan knew he was Jesus? If so, of course, I’m wrong. This is just something I’d never heard before (and I’ve been a member of the Mythopoeic Society, at least on and off, for forty years.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/223 "2014-07-23T23:50:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > True…but I stated it too firmly. A slightly more proper response would have been, “Cite?” i.e., did Lewis ever actually say that Aslan knew he was Jesus? If so, of course, I’m wrong. This is just something I’d never heard before (and I’ve been a member of the Mythopoeic Society, at least on and off, for forty years.) I don’t think **Chronos** meant it that literally - he was just trying to illustrate the difference between the character actually being another character, and just being a symbol for another character. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/224 "2014-07-23T23:55:38Z")
I’m pretty sure that Aslan says to one of the Earth-humans something along the lines that “You will come to know me in your own world as well”. One assumes that Lewis meant for this coming to know to happen at church, not at a zoo. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/225 "2014-07-24T00:11:28Z")
And in the world of the author says it is, but I don’t quite see it: I never really thought Aslan as a Jesus figure very Jesus-y. I didn’t even see it until others pointed it out, even though I knew Lewis was an evangelist of sorts, and I did well in religion classes. (Yes, I am quite dense, probably equivalent to neutron star matter.) Even though I’m not the brightest bulb, in my world, Lewis wasn’t wrong, but he wasn’t getting through. And even though I know the author disagrees with me, I like the story better without the Jesus (umm, don’t want to get involved in the “allegory or not” debate)…perspective? If I read it while watching for the parallels with Jesus, it’s as boring for me as his more heavy handed works. If I read it without looking for them, it’s a nice light fantasy story. So, I guess my point might be: How does the creator being ineffective at getting their point across figure into this? Conversely, how does the creator being blindsided by the obsessions of others work with it (e.g. Georgia O’Keeffe)? Ridley Scott might have insisted that Deckard was a replicant, but a unicorn dream is a damn vague way to try to communicate that. And hey, I think I can be forgiven for not seeing it. Isn’t Aslan a bit violent for a Jesus figure? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/226 "2014-07-24T00:21:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another subtle nuance about the definition of “allegory” (and Tolkien and Lewis were both masters of the subtle nuance) is that Aslan, in the Narnia books, doesn’t _represent_ Jesus. In the context of those books, he _is_ Jesus. Lewis’ premise is that the same entity who became a corporeal human in Bethlehem also became a corporeal lion in a different world. > [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think **Chronos** meant it that literally - he was just trying to illustrate the difference between the character actually being another character, and just being a symbol for another character. Well, I’m bewildered here… ( **scabpicker** just said he was kind of dense… I’m also a member of that club!) If **Chronos** has said that Aslan was also “Christ,” I might go with it, as “Christ” or “Messiah” can be a role as much as an identity. But when he said “Jesus,” that’s a specific identifiable person. So… I don’t know what exactly is being claimed… But…does anyone have anything from Lewis himself on this? He must have written at some length on this point. (Recently, I was noting that, to me, “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” was allegorical about…gin. It’s strong drink that turns a nice man into a monster, as so horribly often in real life. I honestly have no idea whatever if Stevenson had that in mind, but I can’t read the story without seeing that as a sub-text. If Stevenson had heard of it, and denied it emphatically, I couldn’t say “He’s wrong.” But, for me – anyone else? – the story is a moral lesson against distilled spirits.) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/227 "2014-07-24T01:13:50Z")
Aslan isn’t a Christ symbol, any more than the fictional character of “Abraham Lincoln” in “Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter” is an Abraham Lincoln symbol. I mean, the author of ALVH didn’t think that Abraham Lincoln actually fought vampires, but he’s supposed to be actually Abraham Lincoln. Aslan and Jesus are the same person. In the same way The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the same person. Aslan is flat-out Jesus-y. Did anyone read the part where he willingly goes to his death, in substitution for the sinner Edward? And where he, you know, rises from the dead? And stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/228 "2014-07-24T01:17:51Z")
Here’s a quote: > [@CS Lewis](#): > > I did not say to myself ‘Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia’: I said ‘Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would have happened.’ If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing. (Alexander 37. Quoted in this article from Walter Hooper’s C. S. Lewis: A Companion and Guide) Also: > [@](#): > > I want you to guess. Has there never been anyone in this world who (1) Arrived at the same time as Father Christmas (2) Said he was the son of the Great Emperor (3) Gave himself up for someone else’s fault to be jeered at and killed by wicked people (4) Came to life again (5) Is sometimes spoken of as a Lamb… Don’t you really know His name in this world? (Stroud, “Chronicles of Narnia”) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/229 "2014-07-24T01:29:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m pretty sure that Aslan says to one of the Earth-humans something along the lines that “You will come to know me in your own world as well”. One assumes that Lewis meant for this coming to know to happen at church, not at a zoo. In Dawn Treader: ““It isn’t Narnia, you know,” sobbed Lucy. “It’s you. We shan’t meet you there. And how can we live, never meeting you?” “But you shall meet me, dear one,” said Aslan. “Are -are you there too, Sir?” said Edmund. “I am,” said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.” " ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/230 "2014-07-24T02:09:06Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > A friend of mine complimented Sam Shepard recently on one of his more obscure plays…I think Sam thought my friend was being sarcastic. I met Frank Langella- improbably- in the small town in Orange County, NY where I used to live. Apparently his parents lived nearby and he took them furniture shopping. How could I NOT approach ?? What I said was something like, " I’ve enjoyed your work ever since ‘The Twelve Chairs’ ". He BUSTED up laughing. I said, " You expected ‘Dracula’, right? " He said yeah, everyone just says “Dracula”. He was quite well-humored since I’d caught him by surprise with the reference. I left him be after just a few moments, but there was a real twinkle in his eye. How many people remember your second movie? ( His first was “Diary Of A Mad Housewife” ). 😃 As to the OP. I think a lot of artists are more fond of the stories that are built up around their body of work than they are sure of the original inspiration. The Muse, she’s a sneaky gal she is. Difficult to define and describe to those non-creatives. Better to have a good tale at hand instead. Aside from the Muse aspect, I do wonder about things like Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds. Why deny?? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/231 "2014-07-24T03:47:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, I’m bewildered here… ( **scabpicker** just said he was kind of dense… I’m also a member of that club!) > > If **Chronos** has said that Aslan was also “Christ,” I might go with it, as “Christ” or “Messiah” can be a role as much as an identity. But when he said “Jesus,” that’s a specific identifiable person. So… Sorry, didn’t mean to confuse you further. What I was trying to say is that yes, Aslan is literally the person Jesus, who after being killed on Earth as a human, decided to spend time on Narnia as a lion. I thought you were asking if Aslan _knew_ he was also Jesus, which isn’t entirely clear in the books. As others have pointed out, he knew he had different forms in different places, but the extent of his knowledge of those lives isn’t clear. If you called Aslan a Jesus to his face, it’s not clear that he’d know what you are talking about. > [@](#): > > (Recently, I was noting that, to me, “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” was allegorical about…gin. It’s strong drink that turns a nice man into a monster, as so horribly often in real life. I honestly have no idea whatever if Stevenson had that in mind, but I can’t read the story without seeing that as a sub-text. If Stevenson had heard of it, and denied it emphatically, I couldn’t say “He’s wrong.” But, for me – anyone else? – the story is a moral lesson against distilled spirits.) I’m pretty solidly wedded to the “death of the author” and reader response approaches to art, where the artists intentions are disregarded in favor of an examination of what the text itself says, and not what the author says the text is supposed to say. So if viewing Jeckyll and Hyde as an allegory works for you, then it’s an allegory for you, regardless of how Stevenson felt about it. But the idea that Aslan is NOT an allegory is actually baked into the text. There really not a lot of room to interpret the passages just quoted to mean anything other than “Aslan is literally Jesus.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/232 "2014-07-24T06:48:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Aslan isn’t a Christ symbol, any more than the fictional character of “Abraham Lincoln” in “Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter” is an Abraham Lincoln symbol. I mean, the author of ALVH didn’t think that Abraham Lincoln actually fought vampires, but he’s supposed to be actually Abraham Lincoln. Aslan and Jesus are the same person. In the same way The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the same person. > > Aslan is flat-out Jesus-y. Did anyone read the part where he willingly goes to his death, in substitution for the sinner Edward? And where he, you know, rises from the dead? And stuff? That’s why most of us say he is a Christ symbol. Christ wasn’t a Lion, right? Aslan represents Christ. That’s what makes it an allegory. Aslan is “Jesus-y.” (Lovely word for it.) But he isn’t “Jesus.” (I’m fairly sure that Mary would not have survived giving birth to a lion cub.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/233 "2014-07-24T07:41:52Z")
Let me ask you - according to Christian mythology, when Christ is reborn, will he be an allegory of Christ, or will he actually \*be \*Christ? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/234 "2014-07-24T12:07:26Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I met Frank Langella- improbably- in the small town in Orange County, NY where I used to live. Apparently his parents lived nearby and he took them furniture shopping. How could I NOT approach ?? > > What I said was something like, " I’ve enjoyed your work ever since ‘The Twelve Chairs’ ". He BUSTED up laughing. I said, " You expected ‘Dracula’, right? " He said yeah, everyone just says “Dracula”. He was quite well-humored since I’d caught him by surprise with the reference. I left him be after just a few moments, but there was a real twinkle in his eye. How many people remember your second movie? ( His first was “Diary Of A Mad Housewife” ). Along the same lines,a conservative columnist I like says he once approached Brent Spiner at a store and said, “You were great in _ **Independence Day** _.” Spiner laughed and said, “Thanks- I love _ **Star Trek** _, but it’s nice to hear something else.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/235 "2014-07-24T13:02:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Let me ask you - according to Christian mythology, when Christ is reborn, will he be an allegory of Christ, or will he actually \*be \*Christ? I don’t know of a Christian mythos that includes an idea of Christ being reborn. (There’s the interesting image in Galations: “My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you…”, but I am pretty sure that’s not what you meant. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/236 "2014-07-24T13:08:37Z")
Interesting. In the Episcopal service is a reading said by all that says," Christ died. Christ was reborn. Christ will come again. " ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/237 "2014-07-24T14:00:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s why most of us say he is a Christ symbol. Christ wasn’t a Lion, right? Aslan represents Christ. That’s what makes it an allegory. > > Aslan is “Jesus-y.” (Lovely word for it.) But he isn’t “Jesus.” > > (I’m fairly sure that Mary would not have survived giving birth to a lion cub.) No. Aslan is Jesus, full stop. Not an allegory, he’s the actual dude. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/238 "2014-07-24T14:27:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s why most of us say he is a Christ symbol. Christ wasn’t a Lion, right? Aslan represents Christ. That’s what makes it an allegory. > > Aslan is “Jesus-y.” (Lovely word for it.) But he isn’t “Jesus.” > > (I’m fairly sure that Mary would not have survived giving birth to a lion cub.) Jesus was not a lion. Abraham Lincoln didn’t fight vampires. Winston Churchill did not have Dalek servants in his headquarters. That doesn’t mean that the characters of Aslan in the Narnia books, Abraham Lincoln in ALVH and Winston Churchill in Doctor Who aren’t supposed to be the actual historical figures in a fictional setting. And there’s no indication that Aslan was born, the first time humans encounter him he’s creating Narnia out of the Void. Aslan is how God chooses to appear in Narnia, just like Jesus was how he chose to appear on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/239 "2014-07-26T00:50:12Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Wait, the same guy who said the confessed killer in _The Murder of Roger Ackroyd_ wasn’t either? What’s with this dude? Follow-up: I just read the one about Roger Ackroyd, and, while he’s obviously having a little fun, he has some mighty damn good points. His explanation actually makes a little more sense than Christie’s! So much so, in fact, that it makes me wonder if Christie could conceivably have been playing a joke on us, and had this alternate ending in mind, throwing out very subtle little hints to support it. (Without giving away too much…Bayard notes that the purported murderer, in the “confession” scene – never actually confesses!) I won’t say this was an “excellent” book. Too much time was spent on detailed Freudian analysis. (Didn’t bother me; I’m a Freudian.) The book is really pretty heavily padded. Would have made a damn fine essay. But it was certainly the kind of book that makes the reader think! Thank you, **lamia** , for calling it out! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=11)