# The artist is WRONG about his own work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900 "2014-07-12T00:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/41 "2014-07-13T00:57:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I searched for it, and was astonished to see it’s an entire book! I could easily see it being an essay, but a bloody book? $9.00 plus on Kindle? C’mon, guy, get real! > > (But…ah…how good is it, in your opinion? Do I want to shell out the bucks? Is it witty, clever, and fun? Or is it revisionist tripe? Or…?) I got it from the library, and unless you collect Sherlock Holmes-related works that’s what I’d recommend. Bayard puts together a pretty clever case for the alternate killer, but it’s my recollection that he spent too much time on justifying his basic premise – that there could be a “real” killer other than the one Doyle intended. Bayard is a lit professor and may have felt obligated to explain how this fit within the realm of literary criticism, but I kept waiting for him to get on with it. I wouldn’t have bothered reading the book if I weren’t already okay with the idea of fanwanking. If you’re looking for witty, clever, and fun, I’d recommend instead John Sutherland’s books on literary puzzles, such as _Is Heathcliff a Murderer?_ They’re collections of short essays that address things that are puzzling in well-known works of fiction, including omissions/mistakes on the part of the author and common misunderstandings by readers. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/42 "2014-07-13T01:34:18Z")
Ayn Rand genuinely believed that her books were the greatest literary masterworks of the 20th century, and the most important philosophical treatises of the modern age. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/43 "2014-07-13T01:50:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > . . . If you’re looking for witty, clever, and fun, I’d recommend instead John Sutherland’s books on literary puzzles, such as _Is Heathcliff a Murderer?_ They’re collections of short essays that address things that are puzzling in well-known works of fiction, including omissions/mistakes on the part of the author and common misunderstandings by readers. Mil milion gracias! I’ll track 'er down. And I’ll also see if my library has the Bayard. (My instincts are all wrong; I think of bookstores first and libraries second.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/44 "2014-07-13T02:03:07Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Ayn Rand genuinely believed that her books were the greatest literary masterworks of the 20th century, and the most important philosophical treatises of the modern age. Wow. Seriously? Is it possible this is an UL? I mean… Wow. I know other people who hold those views about Atlas Shrugged, but Rand herself? That’s…that’s just lost, man! ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/45 "2014-07-13T03:42:12Z")
Jeff Koons has repeatedly said his art isn’t making any underlying statements about anything, but I hold fast to the belief that his work is both a critical (in the critical thinking sense) and affirmative statement about the aesthetic significance embodied in kitsch and the commoditization of high art. Further, I believe that his statements that his art isn’t making any statement is part of the statement (in sort of a gloriously recursive dialogue about art in the age of mechanical reproduction). A++ for the current retrospective at the Whitney, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/46 "2014-07-13T03:55:49Z")
I always believe an artist knows best what he was trying to create. If he indicates something different from what I’ve interpreted, I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. One example that has not been mentioned here yet is Upton Sinclair’s _The Jungle_. He meant it as an expose of harsh labor conditions, particularly those encountered by immigrants. But the health violations and unsanitary practices are what generated the most buzz. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/47 "2014-07-13T04:05:29Z")
For some reason, reading this thread makes me think about the movie _Back to School_, where Sally Kellerman’s character assigns Rodney Dangerfield’s character a report on _Slaughterhouse Five_ (or something like that), and hands his paper back to him with the comment “_Whoever_ wrote this probably never even read any Kurt Vonnegut.” And of course, Dangerfield’s character had paid Vonnegut himself to write the paper. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/48 "2014-07-13T06:51:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, Lemur Maddox stood in the school doorway with an ax-handle to oppose integration, but, otherwise… Lester Maddox. > [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Ayn Rand genuinely believed that her books were the greatest literary masterworks of the 20th century, and the most important philosophical treatises of the modern age. Within the context of Objectivism, she was right. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/49 "2014-07-13T06:58:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Or to put it another way, a guy who drips some ink on a page forming a blot can’t predict all the crap people will see in it. I don’t know… there’s this artist by the name of Rorschach who did incredibly accurate ink blot drawings of me being castrated by my mother. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/50 "2014-07-13T07:33:30Z")
Richard Donner claims that in _Radio Flyer_ he had no intention for the younger brother to be imaginary as a way for Elijah Wood’s character to deal with abuse. I, and many others, think it’s very clear. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/51 "2014-07-13T09:24:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I always believe an artist knows best what he was trying to create. Yeah, but there’s often a big difference between what he was _trying_ to create and what he _did_ create. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/52 "2014-07-13T10:36:52Z")
I think that most artists - or at least, most good artists - try to create something they themselves enjoy. They may not always know \*why \*they enjoy it, though. ---
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/53 "2014-07-13T11:21:27Z")
Blue Oyster Cult insists that “Don’t Fear the Reaper” has nothing to do with suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/54 "2014-07-13T11:23:25Z")
Lamia is correct about the book I read. I agree that John Sutherland’s books are terrific. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/55 "2014-07-13T12:43:52Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Derrida’s dead, you know. The view you’re responding to is alive and well, and not just in pomo but in analytic philosophy. Look up derived vs intrinsic intentionality. Most philosophers (maybe all?\*) put all written symbols on the derived side. \*I technically count as one by credentials and I actually put some texts in some contexts on the intrinsic side but I’ve got a really idiosyncratic account of intrinsic intentionality and I’m not anyone anybody should listen to. 😉 ETA: People will probably want to jump on me for assimilating the derived/intrinsic intentionality discussion to the topic of authorial intent but suffice to say I think the connection can be made meaningfully, but don’t want to hijack the thread so I’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/56 "2014-07-13T12:47:06Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I thougt this was going to be more about, “The creator/actor is wrong about the _quality_ of his work”. E.G. Gene Wilder on _Willy Wonka_ or Harrison Ford on _Bladerunner_\* Wait, did Gene Wilder not like his work on Willy Wonka, or something? He defined that role so perfectly that in 30 years the only person who was audacious enough to even _try_ to fill those shoes was Johnny Motherfucking Depp, and even _he_ failed miserably, in a role that seemed all but tailor-made for his type of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/57 "2014-07-13T13:07:33Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Yeah, but there’s often a big difference between what he was _trying_ to create and what he _did_ create. IIRC, Agatha Christie once wrote a couple of female characters who live together and have no use for men – and one is, uh, kinda ‘butch’, and the other is, y’know, pretty danged ‘femme’ – and, as the author, she insisted that people were reading too much into it; she hadn’t intended them to be _gay_; they were simply based on two real-life women she happened to know, who just happened to live together and et cetera. So if the real-life inspirations _were_ gay, then what was she actually trying to create? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/58 "2014-07-13T15:36:27Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > In his memoir, Pete Townshend of The Who says that he has to interpret the meaning of some of his early songs the same way a critic would, because he can’t remember what he was actually thinking at the time. It was a long time ago, he was sometimes up against a deadline, there were a lot of other things going on in his life, and he also used plenty of drugs back then. In the same way, Bob Dylan has a lot of turnover in his band, and he says that during rehearsals before every tour, some new musician will approach him and say, “Bob, my favorite song of yours is (I’m making this up) ‘Psychedelic Watermelon Blues’- can we do that one in the show?” And frequently Dylan will ask, “That’s one of MY songs?” The musician will respond incredulously, “Well, YEAH, it’s one of your songs! It’s, like, the best song you ever wrote.” Dylan will then ask, “How does it go?” And then Bob will have to re-learn a song he himself wrote that he’d completely forgotten. Small wonder that, whenever people ask him what a song means, Dylan invariably gives the frustrating non-answer, “Well, I guess whatever you think it means is what it means to you.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/59 "2014-07-13T16:07:07Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Lester Maddox. Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/60 "2014-07-13T16:12:23Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The view you’re responding to is alive and well… Yeah, well, so is Rush Limbaugh. Decon has its place. Unfortunately, it’s kudzued all over the critical spectrum. In my example above, for example, Heinlein was simply, flat-out, factually wrong in his statements about his work. No interpretation or subjective analysis required. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=4)