# The artist is WRONG about his own work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900 "2014-07-12T00:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/81 "2014-07-13T18:42:02Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but is there a reason for believing Pan’s Labyrinth to be a psychological drama rather than a fantasy genre film? If there was a significant hint dropped by the director, I didn’t catch it. > > If there’s no major hint, and if the director says he intended it as a fantasy film, then viewing the girl’s adventures as coping strategies seems a bit odd. She’s the only one who witnesses it, outside the fantasy the world is perfectly, traumatically realistic, and the fantasy she has corresponds exactly to what one could imagine a person would use to cope with the things happening to her. I don’t think the film decides whether it’s real or not–that question is not one the film treats as important. But I think the reading that it’s not real is right there on the surface, nothing to dig after. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/82 "2014-07-13T18:45:17Z")
> [@mage-girl](#): > > When I voiced a similar opinion to my friends regarding _Pan’s Labyrinth_, my friends jumped all over me. :eek: I think they really wanted some kind of happy ending after all that trauma. They’re missing half the film, then. They’re watching something, but it’s not exactly what the film has to offer. Without the poignancy of the tension between the fantasy and reality here, the final moments have no real significance at all! It’s a much better and more compelling (and less explicit and preachy) version of the dilemma presented at the end of _The Life of Pi_. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/83 "2014-07-13T19:08:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In my view, since all the meaning in Heinlein’s text comes from its readers, Heinlein himself doesn’t get to be authoritative about its meaning. Nice encapsulation of what I meant about the approach being taken too far. 🙂 The only texts that don’t have intrinsic meaning are those written by people who think texts don’t have intrinsic meaning. The rest of us - reader, author and critic -bumble along assuming that sometimes a hat is just a hat. Primitive, I know. In the specific case I’m referring to, I’d concede Heinlein’s right to be authoritative about his own work (and would do so for most authors) were it not that his comments are wholly contrary to fact. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/84 "2014-07-13T19:22:27Z")
(From my increasingly unreliable memory…) In one of his books, Asimov recounts being at a sci-fi convention, and hearing a speaker propounding his opinion about the meaning of one of Asimov’s stories. From the back of the room, Asimov said, "I don’t think that’s what it means. The speaker, apparently not recognizing Asimov, said, “What makes you think you know what this story means?” Asimov replied, “Well, I wrote it.” To which the speaker said, “I still say, what makes you think you know what it means?” ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/85 "2014-07-13T19:25:07Z")
The conversations about Asimov and _Pan’s Labyrinth_ reminds me of Jonathan Blow, the creator of the game _Braid_, speaking in the film _Indie Game: The Movie_ (a documentary about some indie game developers). He’s clearly quite upset that, in his view, people don’t “get” _Braid_. It’s a great game and received universal acclaim, but the way he sees it, everyone is appreciating it for the wrong (or perhaps just not the best) reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/86 "2014-07-14T00:07:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Lester Maddox. . . . Whoosh. The story was about cats and dogs, so “Lemur Maddox” is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/87 "2014-07-14T00:46:21Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Yeah, it’s more like an opium dream, ala Kublai Khan. Wait, the “person from Porlock” **isn’t** a way of denying he couldn’t deal with writer’s block? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/88 "2014-07-14T03:22:23Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > The Beatles are totally either lying or wrong. Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds is about a drug trip. YES.I don’t know if Julian ever came home with that drawing, but if someone with the intelligence of John Lennon wrote a song with those initials about the trip is subjective ever heard of, he did it on purpose. It certainly didn’t escape him afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/89 "2014-07-14T03:35:16Z")
“Trippiest.” ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/90 "2014-07-14T03:54:49Z")
> [@Flywheel](#): > > [Exhibit A](http://www.yarnivore.com/francis/Holy_Tango.htm). (Scroll down to “MULTICOLORED ARGYLE SEA.”) I just read the entire page at your link. I was hitherto unfamiliar with Francis Heaney, but _ **dammit** _, that’s amazing work. Thank you, **Flywheel**! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/91 "2014-07-14T04:14:33Z")
I haven’t have time yet to read the entire thing, but I’m going to echo that. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/92 "2014-07-14T15:09:09Z")
One point: sometimes a great story or a great song or ANY great work of art can inspire thoughts or feelings or memories in the beholder that the creator didn’t have in mind. If a particular character or subplot in a novel touches you deeply, well, does it really matter if the author himself thought that character was unimportant or if he’d barely given that subplot any thought at all? If a composer writes a piece of music so beautiful that it makes you happy to be alive, does it really matter if he himself was depressed and miserable and trying to convey despair? SOMETIMES people stupidly misinterpret the clear meaning of a work of art (as when people think of Springsteen’s “Born in the USA” as a patriotic song). But more often, people find interesting implications and subtexts to a work of art that the creator never intended. When that happens, there’s no need to say “The author is wrong” when he denies intending any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/93 "2014-07-14T15:53:30Z")
Personally I get downright mad when people attribute a work of art to drugs without evidence. I once snapped at someone who claimed righteously that Alice in wonderland was written under the influence of LSD. First of all, Alice was written in 1865 and LSD wasn’t even synthesized until 1938, you cretin! Secondly, it seems like people can’t possibly conceive of real creativity in themselves without drugs, so it seems to them that other people can’t, either. Was Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds influenced at least partially by drugs? Quite possibly, most likely. But I can also believe it came from a little kids’ drawing. People are amazingly creative. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/94 "2014-07-14T15:56:20Z")
Another part of the differentiation is that while “art” is inherently subject to interpretation by each viewer (and sometimes in each “viewing” - which includes hearing and reading), and especially open to differing interpretations across time… not all writing is “art.” Not all of even “artistic” writings is necessarily even art - if half an essay describes the physical characteristics of the Brooklyn Bridge while the second half is meditations on jumping off of it, I don’t think there’s much room for interpretation of the factual passages. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/95 "2014-07-14T16:07:38Z")
I have a book about musical imponderables where Bryan Adams claims that the song “Summer of '69” was about the sex act, ie sixty-nining. However, I’ve also read that the record company people say that Adams was originally going to call the song “Summer of '74” (or some time in the 70’s at least), but they convinced Adams to go with the more euphonious “Summer of '69” instead. It seems to me that Bryan Adams was having a joke at the author’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/96 "2014-07-14T16:07:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Heinlein, in speaking of the world in _Starship Troopers_, said that it was possible to earn the vote through civilian civil service such as the Post Office. The book, however, is quite clear that it is not. From the book: > [@](#): > > Major Reid was gentle with him. “Sorry. An appealing theory not backed up by facts. You and I are not permitted to vote as long as we remain in the Service, nor is it verifiable that military discipline makes a man self-disciplined once he is out; the crime rate of veterans is much like that of civilians. And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and endangered — yet their votes count.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/97 "2014-07-14T16:45:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Heinlein, in speaking of the world in Starship Troopers, said that it was possible to earn the vote through civilian civil service such as the Post Office. The book, however, is quite clear that it is not. > > From the book: > > > [@](#): > > > > Major Reid was gentle with him. “Sorry. An appealing theory not backed up by facts. You and I are not permitted to vote as long as we remain in the Service, nor is it verifiable that military discipline makes a man self-disciplined once he is out; the crime rate of veterans is much like that of civilians. And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and endangered — yet their votes count.” The structure of your post suggests that it is intended as a rebuttal of **Chronos** ’s assertion. I hope you’ll forgive my obtuseness, but I can’t find anything in the passage that serves that purpose. A little help, please? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/98 "2014-07-14T16:48:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The structure of your post suggests that it is intended as a rebuttal of **Chronos** ’s assertion. I hope you’ll forgive my obtuseness, but I can’t find anything in the passage that fills that role. A little help, please? “Non-combatant auxiliary service” could very well include things like the Post Office. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/99 "2014-07-14T16:52:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Heinlein, in speaking of the world in _Starship Troopers_, said that it was possible to earn the vote through civilian civil service such as the Post Office. The book, however, is quite clear that it is not. Not \*quite \*true. Heinlein claimed that 95% of volunteers were what we could call “civil service” - which is demonstrably untrue, not even close to what the text of the book says and repeatedly confirms. However, not every uniformed service was combat- or cadre-related; there were auxiliary, support battalions. But they were all military - no evidence at all of any equivalent of “civil service” except crossover things like R&D and quartermaster. The definitive case can be found [**here**](http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/pdfs/nature_of_fedsvc_1996.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900/100 "2014-07-14T17:01:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Non-combatant auxiliary service” could very well include things like the Post Office. Except that nearly everything mentioned as possible “civil service” jobs within the Service is excluded by one passage or another. There is no evidence of any non-military job within FS, and plenty of firm statements that FS is all military. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-artist-is-wrong-about-his-own-work/692900.md?page=6)