# The 'asian countries underachievement' puzzle. Is the Bell curve shape similar for all races? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957 "2013-11-03T01:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/41 "2013-11-04T14:16:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Linky no worky. I’m sorry. It was the fault of the colon at the end of it. [http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003235.html](http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003235.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/42 "2013-11-04T14:25:55Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s nothing spooky about it. History is full of one group mistreating another based on some claim of superiority. Racism (well, along with religion and nationalism) have been the basis of countless atrocities. > > Once you start talking about one race being different than another, in any but the most superficial way, you revive all that history. The consensus, at least sense the 60’s, is to say _everyone is the same_. What’s important is not whether it’s true or not, but that it’s a way to avoid discrimination and prejudice and even outright violence. Those are important social goals. So if you challenge them, you should be prepared to be attacked. I find this post profoundly disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/43 "2013-11-04T14:40:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The standard deviation of IQ scores is always 15. [It’s standardized to be that way.](http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Intelligence_quotient.html) That is only with respect to the normal bell curve. In order for what you said to be true regardless of whether or not the iq distributions of various groups vary, the iq scores (or the scales) of each group would have to be inflated (or deflated) relative to one group. Furthermore, that article itself says that 15 is mostly but not not always used as the standard deviation (even though we are speaking about the normal distribution). What you said in your next paragraph (see above) is ironic given what you wrote preceding it. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/44 "2013-11-04T17:46:55Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > That is only with respect to the normal bell curve. I’ll give you a clue so that you can sound like you know what you are talking about: People say “Bell curve” or “Normal curve” but they don’t say “Normal bell curve” because that’s like asking somebody “How do you like my blue #0000FF car?”. To put it simply, “Normal” and “Bell” are the same adjectives in this context. > [@bita\_malt](#): > > In order for what you said to be true regardless of whether or not the iq distributions of various groups vary, the iq scores (or the scales) of each group would have to be inflated (or deflated) relative to one group. You provided no evidence that there is, in fact, any difference in the shape of the distribution of any group’s IQ score, no matter how they’re arbitrarily defined. > [@bita\_malt](#): > > Furthermore, that article itself says that 15 is mostly but not not always used as the standard deviation (even though we are speaking about the normal distribution). Since I provided the first article that you ever apparently read about IQ and score standardization, here’s a few more explaining the whole process in detail: [This one even has a quiz at the end for you to try](http://tusdstats.tusd1.org/planning/resources/dr_gregg/norms2/testframe.asp) [This one relates the standard score of IQ to the z-score](http://www.daylight.com/meetings/emug97/Bradshaw/Significant_Similarity/Z-scores.html) [I do thank you for annoying me enough to find this one because I learned something new about IQ](http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html) There are an infinite variety of things to be interested, yet you chose racism. Have you ever asked yourself why that is? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/45 "2013-11-04T19:30:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I find this post profoundly disturbing. “First they demanded accurate citations of genetic evidence from the racists, and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a racist…” ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/46 "2013-11-04T19:38:05Z")
For all the mountains of prose and wasted electrons by **Chief Pendent** _et al_ in these threads, I still haven’t seen any citations toward the genetic underpinning of both/either: poorly understood complex behaviourial traits and poorly defined social/racial groups. No attempt has been made to rigourously define them nor have they provided citations establishing a causal link (in a genetic context). Asking for these basic standards of proof isn’t unreasonable, nor is seeking to prevent the dissemination of scientifically fringe/naive/speculative racialist claims unethical. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/47 "2013-11-04T20:32:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I’ll give you a clue so that you can sound like you know what you are talking about: People say “Bell curve” or “Normal curve” but they don’t say “Normal bell curve” because that’s like asking somebody “How do you like my blue #0000FF car?”. To put it simply, “Normal” and “Bell” are the same adjectives in this context.? Dude, why not just admit your mistake instead of nitpicking on irrelevances? Okay so I gave you some wiggle room by engaging in a bit of (superficial) redundancy. “Normal bell curve” as in the “Normal curve” which is the standard “Bell (shaped) curve”. The word “normal” can be used both formally and colloquially, in case you didn’t know. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You provided no evidence that there is, in fact, any difference in the shape of the distribution of any group’s IQ score, no matter how they’re arbitrarily defined…? Was that not precisely the question I was asking? > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Since I provided the first article that you ever apparently read about IQ and score standardization, here’s a few more explaining the whole process in detail: > [This one even has a quiz at the end for you to try](http://tusdstats.tusd1.org/planning/resources/dr_gregg/norms2/testframe.asp) > [This one relates the standard score of IQ to the z-score](http://www.daylight.com/meetings/emug97/Bradshaw/Significant_Similarity/Z-scores.html) > [I do thank you for annoying me enough to find this one because I learned something new about IQ](http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html) > > There are an infinite variety of things to be interested, yet you chose racism. Have you ever asked yourself why that is? Look I’m not interested in engaging in emotional games with you (your perspective is obviously being clouded by emotion), but I suggest you study your own recommended links. Thanks for them by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/48 "2013-11-04T21:21:48Z")
**bita malt** , I responded to another poster’s question with a factual answer. If you have a specific example that shows that my understanding of IQ measurement is in error, then post it. > [@bita\_malt](#): > > Was that not precisely the question I was asking? I didn’t phrase it in the form of question so please do not change my quote to make it look as though I did. > [@bita\_malt](#): > > Look I’m not interested in engaging in emotional games with you (your perspective is obviously being clouded by emotion), but I suggest you study your own recommended links. So what is it about your emotions that made you excited enough to make a several hundred word OP about what is essentially nothing; about what is essentially an observation that has never been made? After all, if this had no effect on your emotional state then you would feel no desire to post such an OP. In other words, why are you attracted to racism? > [@](#): > > Thanks for them by the way. You should take some time and use Google Scholar to find whatever free articles you can on measurement of IQ in various populations. I think you would be surprised to find the word ‘standardization’ or ‘standardized’ in the methods for measuring IQ very frequently. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/49 "2013-11-04T22:34:00Z")
**Inbred Mm** , Is the question asked rephrased as I did: “Do the populations labelled as Asian (which are a very broad group of gene pools and cultures) perform in a narrower range on the Western normed IQ tests than do Caucasions of the West?” offensive? Do you see that a test normed for one population might have another (or even a sub) population havng a different distribution on the test? Would it be more acceptable to ask if the raw score range included in -1 to +1 SD was narrower or broader on a Japanense normed intrument than on one normed for the American population? Again, I am quite confident that the answer to the op’s question is that the broad Asian population (if broadly sampled to include all sub-populations and socioeconomic strata) does not perform in a narrower band than does a Western Caucasian one. Another factor to include is the Flynn effect. Performance on the same IQ tests not renormed have steadly increased for developed countries over decades. The main reason that the mean has gone up is by [fewer performing at the lower quartiles](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289604000807). The result is a higher mean with a narrower SD. Given that the broad collection of Asian populations include many populations that are not as “developed” in the Western sense of the word (poorer nutrition, poorer health care, less educational opportunities, etc.) it is likely that the Flynn effect has not occurred to the same degree and hence that the mean is lower than it would be after development resulted in a Flynn effect and the SD broader. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/50 "2013-11-04T23:34:00Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > The fact that research on the topic is so scarce - especially when so much cold data has been taken on IQ scores and it becomes just a simple matter of meta-analysis - is what strikes me as odd. Even a leading IQ research psychologist, whose name i won’t mention, once answered a question concerning it from an audience member by saying he doesn’t know! This might be part of the reason you’re confused. We don’t have a great deal of “cold data”. We have lots and lots of cold IQ data from North America and northern Europe. We have very little from most other places. That’s why the authors of _The Bell Curve_ had to make up data (and part of the reason why the book is panned.) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/51 "2013-11-04T23:50:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Inbred Mm** , > > Is the question asked rephrased as I did: “Do the populations labelled as Asian (which are a very broad group of gene pools and cultures) perform in a narrower range on the Western normed IQ tests than do Caucasions of the West?” offensive? Do you see that a test normed for one population might have another (or even a sub) population havng a different distribution on the test? > > Would it be more acceptable to ask if the raw score range included in -1 to +1 SD was narrower or broader on a Japanense normed intrument than on one normed for the American population? It doesn’t really matter how you phrase it. It’s irrelevant. There is no observation of fewer geniuses to ‘theorize’ about. There is no achievement gap between East and West. This is all just a mirage. Since the emptiness of the OP is so obvious, and this is a thread that deals yet again with ‘race’ and IQ, I’m left with the certainty that this is yet another soapbox for armchair scientific racism. If these people redirected the energy they spend on these threads to doing actual research on more than just the surface tension of intelligence, genetics, statistics, etc., then they would have all the answers to all their questions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/52 "2013-11-05T01:06:06Z")
Irrelevant is not the same as offensive. Irrelevance does not mandate shutting threads down. You find the question so offensive that you want threads on the subject or any that sound like it shut down as soon as they are opened and behave like any question asking about differences between subpopulations should be censored at the get-go. I agree that the premise is flawed and that it is fairly easy to demonstrate thus and without rancour. Your sidebar regarding what SD means is also irrelevant, based on your not understanding the question of the op … so? The op may indeed be ignorant of the breadth of populations and cultures included under the umbrella term “Asian.” He may be ignorant of the importance of comparing similar SES and educational opportunities within populations of similar sizes to each other, or that Japan has won twice as many Nobel Prizes in the last 20 years as Russia has, despite Russia being more populous (not that there is [any](http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Nobels.aspx) correlation between a country’s IQ ranking, _if_ you trust those things, and number of Nobel’s won.) None of that equals racist. Could be he’s just JAQing and completely insincere. Could be he’s just unaware of information. Is there any harm in assuming the latter? Let his response to information inform us as to which he is. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/53 "2013-11-05T02:31:50Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The standard deviation of IQ scores is always 15. [It’s standardized to be that way.](http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Intelligence_quotient.html) > > Does it ever bother any of you that there is a new thread every other day on this topic yet the people discussing it almost never know anything on the topic of IQ, population genetics, or molecular genetics? And the impartiality of the mods is stupid. Just shut these down as soon as you see them open up. Or at least put politics back in Great Debates because looking at the first page of Great Debates makes us look like StormFront. I am embarrassed to open this forum in public. We do what we can to destroy your faith in humanity. [http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx](http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx) > **[pppl1.pdf](https://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/pppl1.pdf)** > > 43.71 KB You are free to contact the authors of that paper and tell them that they are wrong, I’m not stopping you. Nobody is saying these things justify prejudice (if they did then Jews and Asians would be justified in being prejudiced against whites, and nobody is saying IQ can and should be used to determine human worth) but they can play a role in how nations develop and function. > [@](#): > > “Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause,” write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/54 "2013-11-05T02:58:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > We do what we can to destroy your faith in humanity. > > [http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx](http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx) > > [http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/pppl1.pdf](http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/pppl1.pdf) > > You are free to contact the authors of that paper and tell them that they are wrong, I’m not stopping you. Nobody is saying these things justify prejudice (if they did then Jews and Asians would be justified in being prejudiced against whites, and nobody is saying IQ can and should be used to determine human worth) but they can play a role in how nations develop and function. You have got to be kidding me. Putting aside that you are clearly unaware that those two authors (Rushton and Jensen) are both dead, you are also unaware of the serious methodological criticisms routinely made against this paper (from the idiotic r-k theory to the warped racial narrative of historical events) from practically every participating member of this thread who holds critical views towards “race science”. I can’t help but feel that this unawareness of past race debates strikes me as archetypal of our board’s racialsts. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/55 "2013-11-05T04:41:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Irrelevant is not the same as offensive. Irrelevance does not mandate shutting threads down. You find the question so offensive that you want threads on the subject or any that sound like it shut down as soon as they are opened and behave like any question asking about differences between subpopulations should be censored at the get-go. I don’t mind talking about differences between subpopulations. [This or that candidate gene for intelligence is a very lively and interesting topic for debate](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=candidate+genes+for+intelligence&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=WXB4Ur3dPIWPrQHGlYGoDg&ved=0CCcQgQMwAA). There are probably dozens of them we could all argue about. But end this offensive and useless endless debate/ platform for racists whose sole ‘subpopulation’ preoccupation is ‘race’. > [@DSeid](#): > > I agree that the premise is flawed and that it is fairly easy to demonstrate thus and without rancour. Your sidebar regarding what SD means is also irrelevant, based on your not understanding the question of the op … so? I wrote a reply to my perception that a mistake was made by another poster. If my reply was mistaken then provide a link that corrects me. I provided many that re-iterate what I’ve said. > [@DSeid](#): > > The op may indeed be ignorant of the breadth of populations and cultures included under the umbrella term “Asian.” Ignorant of the group he is talking about… > [@DSeid](#): > > He may be ignorant of the importance of comparing similar SES and educational opportunities within populations of similar sizes to each other, Ignorant of the important variables beyond the groups… > [@DSeid](#): > > or that Japan has won twice as many Nobel Prizes in the last 20 years as Russia has, despite Russia being more populous (not that there is [any](http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Nobels.aspx) correlation between a country’s IQ ranking, _if_ you trust those things, and number of Nobel’s won.) JAQing about observations that never have occurred, and ignorant of contrary information… > [@DSeid](#): > > None of that equals racist. Could be he’s just JAQing and completely insincere. Could be he’s just unaware of information. Is there any harm in assuming the latter? Let his response to information inform us as to which he is. I have enough data to make a decision, and I think it was just another avenue to espouse the scientific racist pov, as nearly 100% of these threads are. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > You are free to contact the authors of that paper and tell them that they are wrong, I’m not stopping you. Nobody is saying these things justify prejudice (if they did then Jews and Asians would be justified in being prejudiced against whites, and nobody is saying IQ can and should be used to determine human worth) but they can play a role in how nations develop and function. [Did you see #10 on your first link?](http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx) > [@](#): > > Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data? Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ, especially the East Asian data. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or “Head Start” programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict. Sounds like an attack on policy. Sounds like it is more than just objective analysis of data. Sounds like they have a program. I’ve read some great reviews of the scientific literature on a variety of topics in my time. Not a single one of them spouted off on public policy or treated government programs like research. That is the only thing I could think of that hasn’t been blasted apart concerning these guys in prior threads. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/56 "2013-11-05T05:24:09Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > We do what we can to destroy your faith in humanity. > > [http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx](http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx) > > [http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/pppl1.pdf](http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/pppl1.pdf) > > You are free to contact the authors of that paper and tell them that they are wrong, I’m not stopping you. Nobody is saying these things justify prejudice (if they did then Jews and Asians would be justified in being prejudiced against whites, and nobody is saying IQ can and should be used to determine human worth) but they can play a role in how nations develop and function. Er… you do realize that you’re using as your source the guy who insisted that white males have extremely small penises and are sexually inadequate in comparison to black men when it comes to bringing women to orgasm? Does someone who makes such odd claims strike you as a terribly reliable source or scientist who’s findings should be trusted? ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/57 "2013-11-05T11:08:10Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I didn’t phrase it in the form of question so please do not change my quote to make it look as though I did. Oh please. Do I have to take the time to make things simple for you to understand? I meant that the very thing you were accusing me of asserting is precisely what I was calling into question in this thread. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > So what is it about your emotions that made you excited enough to make a several hundred word OP about what is essentially nothing; about what is essentially an observation that has never been made? After all, if this had no effect on your emotional state then you would feel no desire to post such an OP. In other words, why are you attracted to racism? This is exactly why I said earlier that your perspective is being muddled by your emotions. The only reason I took the time to elaborate in such a lengthy manner on my question is _precisely_ because i knew that the very mention of such a sensitive subject (no matter how well intentioned) would send people like you into fits. I hoped that a careful elaboration would prevent such from happening. Apparently, some people are so trigger happy on such topics that i failed in that regard. As for the rest of your comments, i will not respond to your petty jibes and insults on the “op”. If it makes you guys feel better to believe that the premise of the question is simply wrong (after contradicting yourselves by offering explanations in other posts as though you accepted the premise) and that i (and tons of other people who have made the same observation) am “uninformed”, then so be it. Suit yourselves. And, by the way, please stop pretending that you aren’t aware that when i occasionally used the word “asian”, i actually meant “east asian” as is often the case in such discourse. Apparently, one has to take better care and be as precise as a needle, when raising such topics with extremely sensitive liberals around. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/58 "2013-11-05T11:18:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This might be part of the reason you’re confused. We don’t have a great deal of “cold data”. We have lots and lots of cold IQ data from North America and northern Europe. We have very little from most other places. That’s why the authors of _The Bell Curve_ had to make up data (and part of the reason why the book is panned.) So, according to you, there isn’t a lot of “cold data” on the iq scores of asians and blacks? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I’ve noticed that there is a tendency on the part of people like you, the fellow with the username “Inbred…” and so on, to act as though the moral superiority you pretend to feel gives you the authority to make false or unwarranted assertions, claim that anyone who appears to take a different view is either insincere or uninformed, or pretend that you even represent the majority in terms of your opinions. I actually think this sort of behavior is counterproductive to your intentions. But I won’t stop you. ---
**Author:** ![sentrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@sentrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sentrix)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/59 "2013-11-05T12:39:08Z")
if ‘asians’, chinese in particular are so stoooopid then please explain why america owes china something like [U.S. Debt - How Much China Owns](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/ss/How-Much-US-Debt-Does-China-Own.htm) Criticism of China Owning U.S. Debt To put China’s ownership of U.S. debt in perspective, its holding of $1.2 trillion is even larger than the amount owned by American households. U.S. citizens hold only about $959 billion in U.S. debt, according to the Federal Reserve. i find the op insulting. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957/60 "2013-11-05T12:55:44Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > So, according to you, there isn’t a lot of “cold data” on the iq scores of asians and blacks? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? It doesn’t sound at all ridiculous to me. Claiming there is sounds a bit silly though. “Cold data” requires broadly surveying the populations of the area … not just a select few who are college students for example or of any one particular sub-population. If you are aware of studies that have done that in large numbers then please share. Also bita, do you believe that “East Asian” is a single population group and/or culture? Please note that cited figures on Western populations, where sampling is a bit deeper, find [national IQ differences](http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx) of say 13 points between Holland and France. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-asian-countries-underachievement-puzzle-is-the-bell-curve-shape-similar-for-all-races/672957.md?page=4)