# The Atheist and the Pastor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762 "2019-02-18T13:25:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/61 "2019-02-22T15:50:03Z")
So you might say there’s an interdependence between the blessings of baptism with other sources of spiritual nourishment. In a vacuum it isn’t the same. To me it’s akin to Calvinism-lite, as it kind of matters who your parents are. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/62 "2019-02-22T16:00:54Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > … > > - In Baptism God forgives sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation. > … (As an atheist, it’s my job to take religious words literally and to pick and choose the lines I question…) This is the part I was wondering about. If Pete really believed this line, it seems insane that he would put his own nieces and nephews at risk. So, to me, either he doesn’t truly believe what he preaches, doesn’t understand the consequences (eternal damnation), or is a secret universalist (believing that all good people are saved). **Shodan** , I don’t know how to reconcile what **Covfefe** posted with what you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/63 "2019-02-22T19:03:39Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > If you’re referring to what I wrote in post #3, I would say baptism is still extremely important to them. I was dispelling two ideas: that it is always necessary for salvation as has been noted elsewhere, and that it is like a valve that guarantees salvation up to an age that it can be rejected. I have an old Catechism book with me so I’ll type out some main points. > > [snip] > > - In Baptism God forgives sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation. > > **- Baptizing with water means that we are made new people who live to please God.** Either baptism is necessary for salvation, or else it is not. But you’re trying to have it both ways, whether you realize it or not. If it is necessary for salvation, then it makes sense to claim that “In Baptism God forgives sins,” etc. But if it is not necessary for salvation, then the forgiveness of sins, being made a new creature, etc. is already done and taken care of before baptism enters the picture. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/64 "2019-02-23T02:42:08Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Is this true? Then, why bother with the christening? Is it just an empty show? If this is true, then this thread no longer makes any sense. I’d love for a Lutheran, or someone knowledgeable about that sect, to speak up. Not Lutheran, but my understanding is that you make sure the child is baptized before the Age of Accountability so that, when they are old enough, it’s already been done, and thus no gap where the kid should have been baptized but wasn’t. (The churches I went to growing up all required you to be past the Age of Accountability to be baptized. They tested this by asking you questions about the concept of salvation that you couldn’t just parrot the right answers to. However, they also didn’t believe that a baptism was required for salvation, just something you would eventually do if you were already saved.) ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/65 "2019-02-23T02:55:19Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > If you’re referring to what I wrote in post #3, I would say baptism is still extremely important to them. I was dispelling two ideas: that it is always necessary for salvation as has been noted elsewhere, and that it is like a valve that guarantees salvation up to an age that it can be rejected. I have an old Catechism book with me so I’ll type out some main points. > > - Natural or plain water is used in Baptism. > > - Baptizing does not consist in just applying water. > > - Baptizing is a holy act commanded by God. > > - God’s Word is used in baptizing. > > - In Baptism God forgives sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation. > > - The Word of God offers great blessings in Baptism. The blessings of Baptism are received through faith. > > \*\*- Baptizing with water means that we drown our sinful desires with daily repentance. > > - Baptizing with water means that we are made new people who live to please God.\*\* > > This last part is important to understand. The lack of a parent or authority figure to train a child in the faith could presumably weaken the power of baptism to save. > > Baptism is one of two sacraments, the other being Holy Communion/Lord’s Supper/The Eucharist, which is usually received weekly or every other week by active believers who have been confirmed in order to receive forgiveness. Confession of sins, well, is recommended daily although the Bible doesn’t offer specific commanding guidelines for either. These are constant cycles and going a long time without repenting and receiving forgiveness jeopardizes souls. Baptism within the accepted church only happens once regardless of anything. And this a _Lutheran_ catechism book? ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/66 "2019-02-23T03:44:10Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > And this a _Lutheran_ catechism book? Yes, a Lutheran junior catechism. I’ll try to find my copy of the more advanced edition, the one we used for instruction leading up to confirmation, to see what it says. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/67 "2019-02-23T03:53:13Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Either baptism is necessary for salvation, or else it is not. But you’re trying to have it both ways, whether you realize it or not. > > If it is necessary for salvation, then it makes sense to claim that “In Baptism God forgives sins,” etc. But if it is not necessary for salvation, then the forgiveness of sins, being made a new creature, etc. is already done and taken care of before baptism enters the picture. They believe it’s possible for babies who die in the womb to go to heaven. I take it you believe something else with regard to their souls or do not see baptism as sacred. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/68 "2019-02-23T04:21:12Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > (As an atheist, it’s my job to take religious words literally and to pick and choose the lines I question…) > > This is the part I was wondering about. If Pete really believed this line, it seems insane that he would put his own nieces and nephews at risk. So, to me, either he doesn’t truly believe what he preaches, doesn’t understand the consequences (eternal damnation), or is a secret universalist (believing that all good people are saved). > > **Shodan** , I don’t know how to reconcile what **Covfefe** posted with what you posted. I will emphasize I’m coming at this from the Wisconsin/Missouri Synod background. The two synods split up in the 1950s but are still quite similar, with issuing Communion to non-members being the point of contention. There’s no way **Shodan** is not from the ELCA or some other because female pastors are a no-no for some and he’s married to one. I’m wondering how his church’s doctrines and practices have been evolving over time because now that I look more closely I’m shocked how casual he is describing some of this. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/69 "2019-02-23T15:38:41Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > They believe it’s possible for babies who die in the womb to go to heaven. I take it you believe something else with regard to their souls or do not see baptism as sacred. Not only is it possible for babies to go to Heaven, but they automatically go to Heaven, through God’s mercy. I cannot figure out what you believe, but my best guess is that you seem to be very-confusedly saying that unborn babies go to Heaven, but that born-but-unbaptised babies do not. Any child who dies who has not yet reached the age of accountability goes to Heaven. Baptism has nothing to do with it. There is absolutely nothing special about baptism. It is simply and solely an outward symbol of an inward change–and a temporary, somewhat inefficient symbol at that. Jesus Himself never baptized anybody (John 4:2). St. Paul hardly ever bothered with it (I Cor. 1:14-17). ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/70 "2019-02-23T21:17:52Z")
Do you not believe in original sin then, **Flyer**? Psalm 51:5. Here’s my paraphrasing taken from the Large Catechism: Baptism was instituted by Jesus’ command to baptize all nations Matthew 28:18-19 The meaning of the Greek word for “baptize” Mark 1:8 Mark 7:3-4 The sacrament of baptism involves more than just use of water, also God’s Word Matthew 28:19 Ephesians 5:25-26 To be baptized “in the name of” God means being made a member of his family Numbers 6:27 Galatians 3:27 I Corinthians 12:13 Ephesians 2:19 Jesus’ command to baptize “all nations” means all who request it for themselves and their children Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:26-40 Acts 16:29-34 Bible teaches to instruct about Jesus before baptizing adults Acts 8:26-40 Acts 16:29-34 Why baptize little children? -They are included in the words “all nations.” Matthew 28:19 Acts 2:39 -They’re sinful by nature and must be born again. Psalm 51:5 John 3:5-6 -They too can believe. Matthew 18:6 Luke 18:15-17 Pastors are normally the ones to do the baptizing for the sake of order. See I Corinthians 14:40. If a child is in danger of dying and a pastor is not present, any Christian may and should baptize, as long they follow the command to apply water and verbally baptize in the name of the triune God. Sponsors may be helpful in various ways. They are customary and not commanded by God. Blessings of baptism: -Forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38 Acts 22:16 -Deliverance from death and the devil Romans 6:3 Hebrews 2:14-15 -Eternal life Mark 16:16 I Peter 3:20-21 Why baptism is a means of grace Romans 6:3 I Peter 3:21 Galatians 3:27 Why baptism is a great personal comfort John 3:3,5 Galatians 3:26-27 Titus 3:5-7 Power of baptism to give blessings is through the Holy Spirit John 3:5 Acts 2:38 Titus 3:5 The Holy Spirit works through God’s Word connected with the water Ephesians 5:25-26 I Peter 1:23 Through this the Holy Spirit creates/strengthens faith to trust God’s promise and receive blessings Acts 2:38-39 Mark 16:16 Colossians 2:12 Titus 3:5,7 Acts 8:26-39 God’s Word makes baptism a washing through which God forgives sin, grants rebirth and new life through the Holy Spirit I Peter 3:21 Titus 3:5-7 The Holy Spirit works in those who have been baptized a new desire to throw off slavery of sin and live a new life Romans 6:3,6 Romans 6:4-5 The sinful nature opposes this new desire by leading one into evil deeds and desires Galatians 5:17 Galatians 5:19-21 Baptism is a reminder to put off the sinful nature every day Colossians 2:11-12 Romans 6:2-3,6,12-13 Explanation of this contrition and repentance Psalm 38:18 Luke 15:21 Psalm 51:4,17 II Corinthians 7:10 Acts 20:21 John 21:15-17 Baptism is a reminder that the new self is to arise day by day to live in the presence of God in righteousness Romans 6:4 Ephesians 4:22-24 Romans 6:13 Luke 19:1-10 Galatians 5:22-23 Baptism renews the daily desire to live a new life, to receive the blessings leading to a life of thankfulness Galatians 3:27 II Corinthians 5:14-15 Colossians 2:6-7 ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/71 "2019-02-23T21:39:27Z")
**If a child is in danger of dying and a pastor is not present, any Christian may and should baptize, as long they follow the command to apply water and verbally baptize in the name of the triune God.** Now this is interesting. Pete kept in touch with his wife’s children. If one of them became very ill and he visited, would he have felt an obligation to ask for permission to baptize regardless of Eve’s feelings at that point? I’m not sure why **Flyer** seems to think I’m a Lutheran as I’ve strongly hinted I am not anymore. ( **Flyer** might be able to find a group on Facebook that would invite strangers in to ask about or debate with their “confused” notions of baptism. Such groups are out there and some of them include clergy.) And scenarios like this are a big part of the reason why - because I understand why it is so difficult for the OP to grasp how Pete can be caring and maintain strong fidelity to his faith at the same time. I can see both sides and maintain Pete can be given the benefit of the doubt. I have a couple relatives who are in the ministry and these kinds of unexpected exceptions to the rule or inconveniences aren’t things they would clamor to talk about in the open. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/72 "2019-02-23T23:48:34Z")
**Do you not believe in original sin then, Flyer?** I got this wrong, so let me shift the question. Where in the Bible does it show God’s grace supersedes the inherited sinful condition, and why do you believe there is an age of accountability? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/73 "2019-02-24T15:33:52Z")
Pete has kept in touch with A&E’s kids, since he’s their uncle and the families get along just fine. I also want to ask **Flyer** about that original sin – what was the point of Jesus’s sacrifice if babies are born without sin and automatically get into heaven? Wouldn’t you be doing an amazing service by killing babies before they reach the “age of accountability” (this is a term I’ve never heard before), since a guarantee of salvation for eternity is way better than letting them reach accountability and screwing it up and being tortured for eternity. (Abortion doctors are the greatest heroes of all!) I find it very odd that I can’t get a consistent answer about whether baptism matters for the child’s soul. It seems like such an important ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/74 "2019-02-24T16:27:04Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Pete has kept in touch with A&E’s kids, since he’s their uncle and the families get along just fine. Right, I knew that, thus my hypothetical of if one of their children had become very ill what would Pete have done was constructed on top of that. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I find it very odd that I can’t get a consistent answer about whether baptism matters for the child’s soul. It seems like such an important ritual. Part of why I included all those Bible passages was to demonstrate how relatively seldom baptism is ever mentioned, as you can see many were used repeatedly in support of doctrine. As is true with other doctrine, some scriptural interpretations read much more into it than others. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/75 "2019-02-24T20:07:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I find it very odd that I can’t get a consistent answer about whether baptism matters for the child’s soul. It seems like such an important ritual. If it’s a clear, consistent answer you want, [consult the Synod](https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#infants-who-die), where you CAN find a consistent, comprehensive answer on infant baptism. Here’s the main part of the explanation, with my bolding: > [@](#): > > Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. > > The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). > > **Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart** (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). > > **Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.** > > We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). > > **The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.** I’m not sure Cofeve’s old catechism book makes this clear. I’d go with what the Synod says on its site. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/76 "2019-02-24T20:30:29Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > If it’s a clear, consistent answer you want, [consult the Synod](https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#infants-who-die), where you CAN find a consistent, comprehensive answer on infant baptism. > > Here’s the main part of the explanation, with my bolding: > > I’m not sure Cofeve’s old catechism book makes this clear. I’d go with what the Synod says on its site. Thanks! **Shodan** , care to counter this? It seems pretty important and fairly miraculous, with God creating faith in an infant’s heart. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/77 "2019-02-24T20:44:15Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Not only is it possible for babies to go to Heaven, but they automatically go to Heaven, through God’s mercy. quote shortened. Really, where in the Bible does it say that? John 3:5 No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” Mat 18:3 …unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven." The operative here to me is one must be converted. The way I see it is Christian want their cake and eat it to. On must believe in Jesus as Lord and Son of God to go to Heaven, but if one doesn’t believe(infants and people who haven’t heard of Jesus etc) you still go to Heaven. Neat trick. You have to believe but you don’t have to believe. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/78 "2019-02-24T20:57:46Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > … > The way I see it is Christian want their cake and eat it to. On must believe in Jesus as Lord and Son of God to go to Heaven, but if one doesn’t believe(infants and people who haven’t heard of Jesus etc) you still go to Heaven. Neat trick. You have to believe but you don’t have to believe. This implication, of course, is missionaries do a grave disservice to the people they preach to. “Savages” living blissfully in ignorance were getting right in, but once they are told the Word, now they can screw up and be eternally tormented. Missionaries may be the most loathsome people possible, under this particular interpretation, potentially condemning people to Hell for eternity. I know that **Flyer** ’s interpretation is not every Christian’s, of course. I continue to find many religious beliefs and practices completely inscrutable. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/79 "2019-02-24T22:53:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > “Savages” living blissfully in ignorance were getting right in, but once they are told the Word, now they can screw up and be eternally tormented. I think you may be missing a key word here, it’s not all pagans but rather **virtuous** pagans who may achieve salvation, and even then there appears to have been disagreement over what that salvation was; Dante puts the virtuous pagans in Limbo, across the river from hell, but certainly not in paradise. The same destination awaits infants who die without baptism. The “punishment” of these souls is eternal separation from heaven. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762/80 "2019-02-24T23:09:32Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > I think you may be missing a key word here, it’s not all pagans but rather **virtuous** pagans who may achieve salvation, and even then there appears to have been disagreement over what that salvation was; Dante puts the virtuous pagans in Limbo, across the river from hell, but certainly not in paradise. The same destination awaits infants who die without baptism. The “punishment” of these souls is eternal separation from heaven. Sorry, I don’t see that anywhere in **rsat3acr** post. Anyway, my understanding, feeble as it is, is that Dante is not “canon” as it were. Didn’t he make a bunch of stuff up? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-and-the-pastor/829762.md?page=5)