# The atheist double-standard **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973 "2008-03-11T15:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/81 "2008-03-11T19:29:23Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] May I use the Bible? [/QUOTE] Certainly. But you must demonstrate that the motive was based solely on the abstract principle of theism, and did not take place within the context of any specific religion or religious ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/82 "2008-03-11T19:39:56Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] The music or art communities have certain works that they view as flawless, certain dead individuals who they view as near-perfect, and certain signs and images that they lavish with respect. Does this mean that they’re “religious in nature”? If not (or even if so) could you nail down a specific definition of what you mean by “religious in nature”? [/quote] Right. That monolithic artistic block will put people to death for dissing Shakespeare. I’m not an artist, and certainly not a musician, or even an art critic, but what I’ve read doesn’t exactly match this picture. > [@](#): > > See [post 67](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=446955&page=1&pp=50) of this thread for a claim that atheists in the future will make up for any atheist failures in the past. For you playing along at home here is **Revenant Threshold** ’s post in the cited thread: > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Good point. However, my point wasn’t just to say “Hey, religious people are bad in this, too!”. It was also to say that if you look at history and the world and all the times that religious people have abused the system to put their religion first, and the potential significant reasons they might have for doing so - and then see all those times that religious people actually have campaigned for fairness, well, it puts those kind of reasons in context. That religious people might be motivated to unfairness is as effective an argument as that atheists might; that is, sure, in some cases, but it’s not a clinching argument. > > Sure. But if everyone was exactly the same, we’d never be surprised. That statement is about generalities; we learn about the past of war so we can avoid the future wars. We don’t study the history of neutron bombs to avoid the future use of them, because we have no history of them, cirucumstances have changed. Likewise, atheism as a respected, large-scale position is pretty new in terms of human history. Saying there have never been any big atheist campaigns for religious fairness in history, therefore they won’t happen, is like saying there’s never been any large-scale anti-Guantanamo Bay movements in history, therefore they won’t happen; there wasn’t any reason or the circumstances for them until relatively recently in human history. As far as I can tell he’s saying that it is not impossible for there to be an atheist drive for religious fairness in the future, and just because something hasn’t happened in the past doesn’t mean it won’t happen in the future. That’s a far cry from saying it will. You’re really, really stretching. Unless RT is using some secret code I’m not aware of, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/83 "2008-03-11T19:43:45Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Certainly. But you must demonstrate that the motive was based solely on the abstract principle of theism, and did not take place within the context of any specific religion or religious ideology. [/QUOTE] The Flood, the killing of the innocent first-born sons in Egypt, Sodom, the killing of children because they teased a bald guy-do any of these count? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/84 "2008-03-11T19:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] If you’d like to nitpick my interpretation, go right ahead. [/QUOTE] I suppose a person who thinks that when Bible saying the world was created in six days what is really meant was that the universe and the world were created billions of years apart would consider your interpretation reasonable. Using the same rigorous logic, I can probably come up with an interpretation saying all your posts actually support atheism. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/85 "2008-03-11T20:03:57Z")
[http://www.aryannations.org/](http://www.aryannations.org/) This is a nice site steeped in the bible and Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/86 "2008-03-11T20:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] The Flood, the killing of the innocent first-born sons in Egypt, Sodom, the killing of children because they teased a bald guy-do any of these count? [/QUOTE] Nope, we’re talking about what human beings did, m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/87 "2008-03-11T20:38:17Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Nope, we’re talking about what human beings did, m’kay? [/QUOTE] You mean like if God told his chosen people to take over another country, kill all the men, and keep the women as wives? That sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/88 "2008-03-11T20:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] You mean like if God told his chosen people to take over another country, kill all the men, and keep the women as wives? That sort of thing? [/QUOTE] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/89 "2008-03-11T21:09:30Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] The gulags are better examples of white people committing atrocities. I mean they were all white, right? Stalin was white. Period. Anyone who says that white people aren’t genocidal is a fool. See, your argument is just as stupid as mine. We should start a club! Atheism is a tool of a totalitarian government. Like the banning of privately held guns. You don’t want a social support structure like religion pulling people away from the party line. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/90 "2008-03-11T21:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] If I understand what you’re saying – and to be honest, I’m not sure I do – then you’re insisting that atheists must acknowledge that these atrocities were committed by atheists in the same way they were committed by people with brown or black hair. They were atheists, they committed the atrocities, therefore they were atheists committing atrocities. It certainly can’t be that you’re insisting that they committed these atrocities **because** they were atheists, because you just said you were skeptical that anyone was killed for the sake of an abstract principle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/91 "2008-03-11T21:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] If you don’t accept the Bible story, then you should probably say the atrocity never happened. If you do, the Bible clearly says the killing was at the express word of god. Now someone could have just said that, but same difference. That doesn’t mean that killings weren’t done for nonreligious reasons. Alexander the Great sacked cities who were obnoxious in resisting, and while religious himself he wasn’t evangelical in the least, and I’ve seen no evidence he ever had anyone killed for the sake of his religion. But those pagans were so primitive. As for more solidly fact based atrocities, the pogroms were definitely religion based. The Jews didn’t really have anything worth taking - their sole offense was sitting there being happily non-Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/92 "2008-03-11T21:22:00Z")
Wow, i’m glad I ended up opening this thread. [QUOTE=ITR champion] See [post 67](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=446955&page=1&pp=50) of this thread for a claim that atheists in the future will make up for any atheist failures in the past. [/QUOTE] It is what other people have said; my post wasn’t saying “Atheists have done bad things, but hey, don’t worry, we’ll only do goodness and sunshine and light in the future!”, but was a response to this comment in particular of yours (which I quoted then) - [QUOTE=ITR Champion] Well, I certainly can’t disagree with that first sentence, since there are many parts of human history that I know nothing about. As for the second sentence, I’ll say this much. **If something has never happened in history that doesn’t prove it’s impossible, but it certainly suggests it**. Surely we’ve all heard in our history classes that we study the past to know the future. If not, then it would seem that history is merely a waste of time. [/QUOTE] (my bolding) All I was saying is that past behaviour doesn’t dictate future behaviour. That atheists might rise up en mass and protect religion in the world - and they might not. All I was suggesting was the possibility of it. I point out in return that if you took our disagreement to not be about the specific case of mass atheist rising up to protect religion, but about atheist failures in general, it appears your own post accepts the idea that it is not necessarily “impossible, but it certainly suggests” that athiests will never do anything but continue those failures. IOW, if indeed you truly believe that what we were talking about was “atheists in the future will make up for any athiest failures in the past”, you yourself have declared that entirely impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/93 "2008-03-11T21:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] Why don’t you give me a theoretical example, because from where I’m standing you are not only moving the goalposts, you’re hiding them. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/94 "2008-03-11T21:27:50Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] Seems to me people aren’t claiming they weren’t atheists comitting atrocities, but that they weren’t comitting atrocities because they were atheists. I’m not entirely sure who I would agree with. But this is a misunderstanding or a misrepresenation. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/95 "2008-03-11T21:28:58Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Sure, if you can show that it didn’t happen within the context of any religion. You must demonstrate that the abstract principle of theism was the sole motive. You see, I’m immensely skeptical that anybody was ever killed solely for the sake of an abstract principle. That’s why it amuses and disgusts me to see atheists insisting that the gulags and the Ukrainian famine are somehow not valid examples of atheists committing atrocities. [/QUOTE] Are you trying to dissociate _specific_ examples of theism from theism in general? Like, you can only be a theist if you _only_ believe in completely generic, entirely detailless theism? If you believe in a god that has, for example, a name, then it’s no longer theism to you. Because that’s the stupidist thing I’ve heard yet in this thread. So it cannot _possibly_ be your argument. Please enlighten me as to what your argument actually is. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/96 "2008-03-11T21:33:46Z")
[QUOTE=Amok] Atheists have done horrible things in the past. No doubt atheists will do horrible things in the future. So what? Atheism is not a moral code, a philosophy, a dogma or a religion. It prescribes no behavior for its adherents and makes no judgments about how humans should behave. [/quote] Just out of curiosity, would the atheists in this thread agree that by the same logic atheism has never brought humanity anything good? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/97 "2008-03-11T21:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Many secular governments have been able to function smoothly in Christian societies. Plainly nothing prevents the religious doctrines of Christianity from existing side by side with the political doctrines of a government. Yet something about the militantly atheist regime of the Soviets made them decide that they couldn’t take a ‘live and let live’ approach to the Russian Orthodox Church. [/quote] Well, almost. You seem to view Communism and atheism as one thing, which led to atrocities: Communism/atheism -\> atrocities However, what most of us here are saying, is that the dogmatic ideology of Communism led to both atheism and atrocities: Communism -\> atheism Communism -\> atrocities In fact, you seem to hint at this understanding in the second half of your paragraph, apparently without realizing it. You _cannot_ take this set of relationships and say that atheism led to atrocities. > [@](#): > > A mainstream Christian majority in a particular society provides a bulkwark against invasion by a foreign ideology, whether it be secular, religious, or even a fringe Christian movement. Hence a major atheist attack the Christian majority is necessary for an invading ideology to step in. Huh? Where’d you get the _When Atheists Attack_ idea? We’re not wanting to attack you - we just want you not to discriminate against us. And incidentally, I do happen to wish that more of you Christians would lose your faith; I’d prefer to live in a country with more rationalists. But that’s not an attack. And what invading ideology would that be? Are you saying that if/when US Christians are convinced that they’re wrong and the atheists were right, that the US is easy pickin’s for a Communist takeover? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/98 "2008-03-11T21:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Are you trying to dissociate _specific_ examples of theism from theism in general? Like, you can only be a theist if you _only_ believe in completely generic, entirely detailless theism? If you believe in a god that has, for example, a name, then it’s no longer theism to you. Because that’s the stupidist thing I’ve heard yet in this thread. So it cannot _possibly_ be your argument. Please enlighten me as to what your argument actually is. [/QUOTE] I think you’re making the same mistake LP is. If I understand it correctly, he’s saying that no-one’s killed because of their theism, but rather their particular religion. Which seems fair to me. I can’t off the top of my head think of any atrocities comittied by people in the name of theism, either. Plenty of theists have done bad things, but probably not for theism. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/99 "2008-03-11T21:36:28Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Just out of curiosity, would the atheists in this thread agree that by the same logic atheism has never brought humanity anything good? [/QUOTE] No. Holding irrational beliefs is a negative thing. Releasing those irrational beliefs is a relatively positive thing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/100 "2008-03-11T21:37:10Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Wow, i’m glad I ended up opening this thread. It is what other people have said; my post wasn’t saying “Atheists have done bad things, but hey, don’t worry, we’ll only do goodness and sunshine and light in the future!”, but was a response to this comment in particular of yours (which I quoted then) - (my bolding) [/QUOTE] I’m reminded of Marshal McLuhan stepping out from behind the theater placard in Annie Hall. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973.md?page=6)