# The atheist double-standard **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973 "2008-03-11T15:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/121 "2008-03-11T23:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] If I understand what you’re saying – and to be honest, I’m not sure I do – then you’re insisting that atheists must acknowledge that these atrocities were committed by atheists in the same way they were committed by people with brown or black hair. They were atheists, they committed the atrocities, therefore they were atheists committing atrocities. It certainly can’t be that you’re insisting that they committed these atrocities **because** they were atheists, because you just said you were skeptical that anyone was killed for the sake of an abstract principle. [/QUOTE] No, I’m saying that Stalin and Mao and their followers killed millions of people in the name of a philosophy that explicitly advocated atheism and materialism. Atheism is critical to the philosophy. Remove materialism from Marxism, and you’ve removed the Marxism; it’s like trying to remove the wetness from water. Insisting that atheism is not critical to Marxism is like insisting that theism is not critical to Christianity. No matter how you look at it, if you’re the least bit honest you have to admit that tens of millions of people died in the name of an explicitly atheistic philosophy, a secular, materialist philosophy. Now, turnabout is fair play. If some atheists use the Inquisition and 911 as evidence that all religion is evil it is entirely proper for Christians, Muslims and grouchy old misanthropic agnostics like me who don’t really like much of anybody or anything in the first place to point out to that huge stack of tens of millions of corpses and ask if this somehow invalidates all forms of secularism and materialism. If Torquemada and Osama bin Laden invalidate religion, then Stalin and Mao invalidate secularism and materialism. Claiming that communism is somehow really a religion or that the explicitly atheistic nature of the Marxist variation of communism is somehow irrelevant isn’t just dishonest, it’s dishonest and stupid. Saying that atheism had nothing to do with the gulags is every bit as absurd as saying that theism had nothing to do with the Inquisition. One group offers theistic explanations for its actions. The other offers atheistic ones. There may even be some truth in them. But what’s the difference to the victims? Religion didn’t cause the Inquisition. Specific people claiming religious motives did. Secularism didn’t cause the Ukrainian famines. Specific people justifying their actions with a secularist philosophy did. It doesn’t prove anything about either religion or secularism. Christ on a pogo stick! Am I the only one who ever gets tired of this childish, tit-for-tat argument? “You’re a meanie!” “Yeah, well, you’re a bigger meanie!” To bed without your supper! Both of you! Now! ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/122 "2008-03-11T23:16:55Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Religion didn’t cause the Inquisition. Specific people claiming religious motives did. [/QUOTE] And there it is. Sugar on porridge. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/123 "2008-03-11T23:19:52Z")
Re-reading the OP; [QUOTE=ITR champion] To sum up, atheists want to tilt the palying field severely without justification. By doing so, as I see it, they admit that they can’t win this debate on a level playing field. [/QUOTE] To which debate do you refer? The religious people do bad things/atheists do bad things debate? Or religion vs. atheism in general? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/124 "2008-03-11T23:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, but they might say things like, “Science H. Logic! What a jerk!” [/QUOTE] I know I will be saying that from now on! Did you make that up? I’m _googling._ ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/125 "2008-03-11T23:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] This makes my head hurt. So if a religious person does something bad in the name of his particular religion, like, say the 9/11 attacks, that does not count as being due to their theism? Are you sure you’re really saying that? I agree with begbert2 - that can’t _possibly_ be your argument! [/QUOTE] I think I get it: To say that something a person does is “due to their theism” **or** “due to their atheism” is to say that it’s due, simply, to which side of the “God exists/God doesn’t exist” question that person comes down on. Since there’s invariably more to it than that, you can’t say people do things due to their atheism or their theism, but they may do things due to their belief system, which may include theism or atheism among its tenets. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/126 "2008-03-11T23:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] I think I get it: To say that something a person does is “due to their theism” **or** “due to their atheism” is to say that it’s due, simply, to which side of the “God exists/God doesn’t exist” question that person comes down on. Since there’s invariably more to it than that, you can’t say people do things due to their atheism or their theism, but they may do things due to their belief system, which may include theism or atheism among its tenets. [/QUOTE] Exactly. And throw in lots of other things like class, ethnic, tribal and racial conflicts, often justified or denied with whatever philosophy or religion prevails in the cultures of the societies involved, and you’ll understand why I said that no one ever got killed solely because of some abstract principle. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/127 "2008-03-11T23:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] I think I get it: To say that something a person does is “due to their theism” **or** “due to their atheism” is to say that it’s due, simply, to which side of the “God exists/God doesn’t exist” question that person comes down on. Since there’s invariably more to it than that, you can’t say people do things due to their atheism or their theism, but they may do things due to their belief system, which may include theism or atheism among its tenets. [/QUOTE] Exactly. I can’t remember ever making any kind of important decision or ethical choice _because_ I’m an atheist. That never enters into my mental calculus. For the record, i’m not one of the people that says religion makes people evil or that the Inquisition proves God doesn’t exist or anything like that. I’ve disparaged religious _fanatacism_, but I see that as a different phenomenon than normal religious faith. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/128 "2008-03-11T23:54:13Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] No, I’m saying that Stalin and Mao and their followers killed millions of people in the name of a philosophy that explicitly advocated atheism and materialism. Atheism is critical to the philosophy. Remove materialism from Marxism, and you’ve removed the Marxism; it’s like trying to remove the wetness from water. Insisting that atheism is not critical to Marxism is like insisting that theism is not critical to Christianity. No matter how you look at it, if you’re the least bit honest you have to admit that tens of millions of people died in the name of an explicitly atheistic philosophy, a secular, materialist philosophy. [/QUOTE] I suppose you have never heard of Liberation Theology and Marxist priests? [Here’s an article](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,876570,00.html?iid=chix-sphere) that mentions them - they were much bigger back 20 years ago. There are clearly people who believe in God and Marxism both. Now the Pope doesn’t like them much, but they certainly have seemed sincere to me. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/129 "2008-03-11T23:58:49Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I suppose you have never heard of Liberation Theology and Marxist priests? [Here’s an article](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,876570,00.html?iid=chix-sphere) that mentions them - they were much bigger back 20 years ago. There are clearly people who believe in God and Marxism both. Now the Pope doesn’t like them much, but they certainly have seemed sincere to me. [/QUOTE] And if you look hard enough, you’ll find a geologist who’s a young earther, or an astonomer who believes in astrology. A relative handful of confused people who think they’ve somehow reconciled Marxism with Catholicism doesn’t mean very much. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/130 "2008-03-12T00:01:38Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] I think I get it: To say that something a person does is “due to their theism” **or** “due to their atheism” is to say that it’s due, simply, to which side of the “God exists/God doesn’t exist” question that person comes down on. Since there’s invariably more to it than that, you can’t say people do things due to their atheism or their theism, but they may do things due to their belief system, which may include theism or atheism among its tenets. [/QUOTE] I agree that no one did anything just because they became convinced god exists, but don’t you think some people take actions because they think, or are told, that God wants them to? Theism becomes a necessary but not sufficient condition for this kind of religiously inspired evil (And good also, to be fair.) The whole argument against religion in this context is that people might feel that God’s desire sets morality, and overrides their natural morality, causing them to do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. It might go against their inbred morality, or it might let them express evil tendencies that would otherwise be repressed. It’s not only religion - jingoism might have a similar effect. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/131 "2008-03-12T00:10:27Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] And if you look hard enough, you’ll find a geologist who’s a young earther, or an astonomer who believes in astrology. A relative handful of confused people who think they’ve somehow reconciled Marxism with Catholicism doesn’t mean very much. [/QUOTE] It was a fairly significant movement in Latin America - far more than a handful of people. In any case it demonstrates that someone who is well versed in religion, (and not just a random Sunday churchgoer) can be a Marxist also. If Christians can throw out large chunks of the Bible which are now embarrassing, why can’t Marxists throw out small chunks of what Marx said? I don’t think even they say he was infallible. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/132 "2008-03-12T00:12:15Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] The whole argument against religion in this context is that people might feel that God’s desire sets morality, and overrides their natural morality, causing them to do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. It might go against their inbred morality, or it might let them express evil tendencies that would otherwise be repressed. It’s not only religion - jingoism might have a similar effect. [/QUOTE] And some people felt that the Revolution was so important that they were exempt from ordinary standards of morality. The Animal Liberation Front thinks they have the right to wreck laboratories, commit arson and terrorize scientists and their families. Campus lefties think they have the right to harass and shout down conservatives who have been invited to speak at their campus. People looking for excuses to bully others will always find them. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/133 "2008-03-12T00:18:36Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] It was a fairly significant movement in Latin America - far more than a handful of people. In any case it demonstrates that someone who is well versed in religion, (and not just a random Sunday churchgoer) can be a Marxist also. If Christians can throw out large chunks of the Bible which are now embarrassing, why can’t Marxists throw out small chunks of what Marx said? I don’t think even they say he was infallible. [/QUOTE] How many chunks can you throw out before it ceases to be Marxism? Sorry, but there is no room in Marxist doctrine for supernaturalism. It’s like claiming to believe in geocentrism and heliocentrism at the same time. In the Marxian worldview, this world is all there is. If you believe in a hereafter or a spiritual world, you aren’t a Marxist. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/134 "2008-03-12T00:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] I think I get it: To say that something a person does is “due to their theism” **or** “due to their atheism” is to say that it’s due, simply, to which side of the “God exists/God doesn’t exist” question that person comes down on. Since there’s invariably more to it than that, you can’t say people do things due to their atheism or their theism, but they may do things due to their belief system, which may include theism or atheism among its tenets. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s certainly never what _I_ meant when I (_if_ I) said that something a person does is “due to their theism”. And really, I don’t think that that sort of verbiage is that unclear; I can respect being picky about language but to profess incomprehension of this is a bit much. Plus I think it’s perfectly valid to say that people do things due to their theism or atheism. For example, my atheism leads me to take the atheistic side in debates like this one. Sure, sure, it’s not my atheism _alone_, I also have inclinations toward argument and using computer and whatever, but come on people. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/135 "2008-03-12T00:39:37Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] With pleasure. The basis of Christianity is that individuals are individuals in the way that western society has traditionally understood, i. e. with the free will to make choices. [/QUOTE] Wow. I could have sworn that the basis of Christianity was that Jesus died for our sins, that you die in your sins if you do not accept this, and Christians have a moral duty to spread these teachings to the four corners of the earth. He also said some stuff about loving your neighbor, doing unto others, etc, but people tend not to dwell on that too much. The free will thing is like number #23 on the list of characteristics of Christianity. In fact, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t think it’s even in the bible… it’s just sort of inferred after the fact to fill in a bunch of plot holes in the Christian worldview. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/136 "2008-03-12T00:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] How many chunks can you throw out before it ceases to be Marxism? Sorry, but there is no room in Marxist doctrine for supernaturalism. It’s like claiming to believe in geocentrism and heliocentrism at the same time. In the Marxian worldview, this world is all there is. If you believe in a hereafter or a spiritual world, you aren’t a Marxist. [/QUOTE] This would work much better if there weren’t theist Marxists out there, counterexampling you in advance. Also, why should I care what _you_ think Marxism is? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/137 "2008-03-12T00:58:55Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] How many chunks can you throw out before it ceases to be Marxism? Sorry, but there is no room in Marxist doctrine for supernaturalism. It’s like claiming to believe in geocentrism and heliocentrism at the same time. In the Marxian worldview, this world is all there is. If you believe in a hereafter or a spiritual world, you aren’t a Marxist. [/QUOTE] Is this the no true Catholic priest argument, or the no true Marxist argument? I’m not either, but I can see someone downplaying the atheist part, playing up the far more economic part, and identifying the workers paradise with heaven on Earth. Anyhow, no matter what you and I think, people better versed in religion than either of us seem to be able to handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/138 "2008-03-12T01:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] Wow. I could have sworn that the basis of Christianity was that Jesus died for our sins, that you die in your sins if you do not accept this, and Christians have a moral duty to spread these teachings to the four corners of the earth. He also said some stuff about loving your neighbor, doing unto others, etc, but people tend not to dwell on that too much. The free will thing is like number #23 on the list of characteristics of Christianity. In fact, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t think it’s even in the bible… it’s just sort of inferred after the fact to fill in a bunch of plot holes in the Christian worldview. [/QUOTE] Not only that but I’m not aware of any pre-Christian religion that _didn’t_ believe in free will. Like Judaism, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/139 "2008-03-12T02:21:17Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] And you would be correct. (The obvious relevance to this thread being that you can’t believe that Jesus saves individuals unless you first believe there are individuals. [/QUOTE] Can we have a show of hands? Atheists who are also implicitly communists? I can’t believe that this argument is even being made. ITR is essentially arguing: All atheists are communists. All communists are atheists. Atheists = Communists. This is ludicrous. I’m atheist, and I don’t find communism logical or attractive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973/140 "2008-03-12T03:13:33Z")
Karl Rove is an atheist. Who knew he was a Communist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-atheist-double-standard/440973.md?page=8)