# The attack on Charlie Hebdo was not an attack of freedom of speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707 "2015-01-13T12:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/81 "2015-01-13T22:51:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I know. Was just pointing out that it’s kind of silly when we are talking about the children of African immigrants attacking a magazine in France to bring up a U.S. judge’s opinion about the Constitution. Gandhi once said _“Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.”_ Do you think he only meant that this was the case in India? When you have Holmes taking about freedom of thought or Gandhi talking about non-violence, they’re talking about the universal value of these ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/82 "2015-01-13T23:18:14Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > You fail to see, or won’t see this. The invasion led to the radicalization of many Muslims all over the world. After radicalized they have off course a lot of anger against USA, but also against elements they now see as an enemy of Islam. One of them would be press that’s very hostile towards Islam, even if it lays in a country that didn’t participated in the attack of Iraq. The second Iraq war was certainly a clusterfuck, but Islamic terrorists were blowing shit up for decades before the first Iraqi war even started, so - no, I don’t think we can blame it all on that. > [@](#): > > USA, UK, Spain, Denmark, Italy and Poland was part of the coalition that invaded Iraq. Yeah. Speaking of “radicalization”, I wonder where France will stand the next time international sentiment decides to form another coalition? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/83 "2015-01-13T23:42:58Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > You fail to see, or won’t see this. The invasion led to the radicalization of many Muslims all over the world. After radicalized they have off course a lot of anger against USA, but also against elements they now see as an enemy of Islam. One of them would be press that’s very hostile towards Islam, even if it lays in a country that didn’t participated in the attack of Iraq. > > USA, UK, Spain, Denmark, Italy and Poland was part of the coalition that invaded Iraq. Are you familiar with Salman Rushdie? The fatwa issue calling for his death in retaliation for writing a book predated the invasion of Iraq by 14 years. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/84 "2015-01-13T23:46:37Z")
> [@camille](#): > > [Really? This has been mentioned in the news quite a bit:](http://www.ibtimes.com/kouachi-brothers-radical-islam-began-long-charlie-hebdo-attack-1779080) I don’t doubt that the invasion of Iraq has caused an increase in Muslim radicals that are a headache for any number of nations. But the OP seemed to be implying that the Hebdo attack was an act of revenge for the invasion of Iraq. Which makes about as much sense as, say, invading Iraq because of a terrorist attack carried out by a bunch of Saudis. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/85 "2015-01-14T01:49:54Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > They where radicalized after USA invaded Iraq. Oh, so the ones who killed people on 9/11 were the unradicalized strain? :rolleyes: Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/86 "2015-01-14T01:50:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether this was true or not, it doesn’t change the fact that shooting people because of what they drew or wrote is an attack on free speech. And not getting that is an attack on common sense. To put it mildly. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/87 "2015-01-14T02:05:59Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > However, US can’t escape the mess they created in Iraq. A mess that led to many things, among those the radicalization of many muslims around the world. I agree with there being a mess. However, polling fails to show a net radicalization correlating with the US waging war in Iraq. Look at the “Levels of Support for Suicide Bombing Over Time” chart at the bottom of this link: > **[Concerns about Islamic Extremism on the Rise in Middle East](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/)** > > As well-publicized bouts of violence, from civil war to suicide bombings, plague the Middle East, Africa and South Asia, concern about Islamic extremism One can as well argue the other way, even from an anti-American standpoint: Brutal bullying sometimes works. That perhaps was bin Laden’s view (“When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.”) It may be that net radicalization from hatred of the US due to Iraq, and its opposite, due to not wanting to provoke a rampaging American elephant, roughly balance. While I do think the US goes to war too often, asking how the Arab street will react is not a way to design a foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/88 "2015-01-14T02:22:32Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > They where radicalized after USA invaded Iraq. Responding to the US invasion of Iraq with violence is fair. Because we did not invade Iraq with free speech, we used bombs and bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/89 "2015-01-14T03:01:44Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > They where radicalized after USA invaded Iraq. So the Mullahs of Iran never issued they’re fatwa calling for the death of Salman Rushdie until after the US invaded Iraq in 2003? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/90 "2015-01-14T03:04:38Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > Many could see it that way, especially after the rhetoric by Bush that included words like _crusade_ and _evil_. > > However, US can’t escape the mess they created in Iraq. A mass that led to many things, among those the radicalization of many muslims around the world. US also have some responsibility for the phony president (Malaki) that ruled Iraq after Saddam and the sectarian politic he led, especially after US troops left in 2011. Malaki marginalized the sunnis and made Isil a mass movement. What exactly does France have to do with this? If you’re going to make comments about Islam or the Middle East please brush up on your recent history because so far you’ve done little to suggest any understanding of either. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/91 "2015-01-14T03:07:14Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > Perhaps I used a unsuitable word. A vicious campaign against Islam is perhaps more suitable description. Was this comparable to the “vicious campaign against Catholicism” conducted by Monty Python. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/92 "2015-01-14T03:48:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Responding to the US invasion of Iraq with violence is fair. Because we did not invade Iraq with free speech, we used bombs and bullets. What??? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/93 "2015-01-14T03:57:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Was this comparable to the “vicious campaign against Catholicism” conducted by Monty Python. Did Monty Python ever do anything like [this](http://all-that-is-interesting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/controversial-charlie-hebdo-gay-rights.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/94 "2015-01-14T04:03:41Z")
As others have clearly and articulately pointed out, the Paris attack was an attack on speech **by definition**. That there may have been other factors at play is irrelevant – it’s not as if the cartoons were just a smokescreen for a completely different motivation, as this is far from the first time that people have been threatened or attacked by radical Islamists for perceived insults to Islam or its prophet. Many media have chosen not to reproduce the cartoons in question. Thus, not only was this an attack on free speech, it was an attack that was at least partially successful at suppressing it, a fact that I find chilling and depressing. A few other observations … > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > It’s my understanding that CH was just a convenient target and the attack was motivated more by a desire to avenge the air strikes on ISIL as opposed to genuine outrage over cartoons. **Of course, it needn’t be just one or the other** … > > I’m not seeing that; I take them at their word, that they were motivated by outrage to an insult against their prophet, which in their mind justifies violence. This is true, but as **John Mace** says in the part I bolded it need not be exclusively one or the other. It is in fact a complicated interplay of several factors – escalating violence between the West and the Middle East and the extreme sensitivities of radical Islamists to their religion and its iconic symbols and its central role in their culture and society. Those factors feed on each other in an escalating conflict in which the religion itself plays a dominant role in justifying barbaric violence. It’s all of those things, but the outrage at the supposed “insults” to Islam is very real. > [@Eonwe](#): > > "Hey you, your momma is so fat . . . " > > _smack_ > > “Look at this guy, attacking free speech!!!” > I mean, that gets a little silly, doesn’t it? Try saying exactly that same thing to Kim Jong-Un. When instead of “_smack_” what you get is a life sentence in a gulag for traitorous speech against the Great Leader, it doesn’t seem so silly any more, does it? > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > To be fair, I wonder if **Scandic** is from continental Europe. It seems to me that a lot of continental Europeans have a different view of free speech than the US. In that denying the Holocaust or engaging in racist public pronouncements are not considered freedom of speech at all and can and should be prosecuted. As an American, it doesn’t make much sense to me, but then again, folks from Germany, France, etc. tell me that the American tendency to allow “free speech” to groups like the KKK and Westboro Baptist makes no sense to them. It’s not just “continental Europeans”. Britain, Canada and the rest of the Commonwealth all have carefully limited laws against hate speech. It’s notable that it is the US, in fact, that is pretty much the lone outlier in holding to the view that free speech must be unconditionally absolute. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/95 "2015-01-14T04:04:08Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I agree with there being a mess. > > However, polling fails to show a net radicalization correlating with the US waging war in Iraq. Look at the “Levels of Support for Suicide Bombing Over Time” chart at the bottom of this link: > > [http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/](http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/) 😕That poll doesn’t address net radicalization at all. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So the Mullahs of Iran never issued they’re fatwa calling for the death of Salman Rushdie until after the US invaded Iraq in 2003? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What exactly does France have to do with this? I could be wrong, but I read it that the OP was speaking specifically about the actual Charlie Hebdo shooters, who - as I cited earlier - were notably secular French citizens who became radicalized specifically as a reaction to the Iraq invasion. However tangential to the original premise of the OP, I cannot believe there is any doubt that the Iraq invasion was a significant and effective recruitment tool for extremists. _Of course_ it was an attack on free speech, technically speaking, but the censorship by violence is somewhat peripheral to the main extremist objective, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/96 "2015-01-14T04:17:42Z")
> [@camille](#): > > However tangential to the original premise of the OP, I cannot believe there is any doubt that the Iraq invasion was a significant and effective recruitment tool for extremists. _Of course_ it was an attack on free speech, technically speaking, but the censorship by violence is somewhat peripheral to the main extremist objective, is it not? Perhaps you came looking for a different discussion? This one is about the issue you see as on the periphery of your issue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/97 "2015-01-14T04:26:58Z")
> [@Scandic](#): > > I see that a lot of you disagree, but it might be that these happenings aren’t a wide attack on freedom of speech, as many claim, but a rather limited attack on a small vulgar magazine that made it their goal to humiliate Muslims. The people who are humiliating Muslims are the infidels who kill in the name of Allah the merciful and compassionate. Either they believe God is too weak or lazy to smite those who displease him or they got the concept of a loving God all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/98 "2015-01-14T04:32:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As others have clearly and articulately pointed out, the Paris attack was an attack on speech **by definition**. That there may have been other factors at play is irrelevant – it’s not as if the cartoons were just a smokescreen for a completely different motivation, Is it beyond belief that the Muslim attacking cartoons could be a smokescreeen for justifying “cracking down” on Muslim imimmigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/99 "2015-01-14T04:33:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What??? Yes, it’s true, we didn’t drop pamphlets containing drawings of Mohammed doing disgusting things on the people of Iraq, we used bombs and bullets. It’s a fact. You can look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707/100 "2015-01-14T04:36:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yes, it’s true, we didn’t drop pamphlets containing drawings of Mohammed doing disgusting things on the people of Iraq, we used bombs and bullets. It’s a fact. You can look it up. You’re, uh… you’re aware that Charlie Hebdo isn’t an American magazine, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-was-not-an-attack-of-freedom-of-speech/709707.md?page=6)