# The Avengers Movie discussion thread (possible recent superhero movie spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057 "2010-05-11T15:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/81 "2010-07-12T22:40:35Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > This certainly does suck. Still, it pales in comparison to how utterly horrifying it was to me to find out that they’d actually chosen Joss “It’s everybody’s fault _but_ mine” Whedon to direct this thing. Wait. He has _that_ reputation? I’ve never heard that. When Dollhouse was weak in the beginning, he really admitted it and took responsibility for it, I thought. > [@MTCicero](#): > > I do agree with you, however, that Bryan Singer made the ultimate decision to leave those “gems” in. Notice, though, how the **X2: X-Men United** script is 100% Whedon-free. And is all the better for it. But so is the X-men 3 and the X-men Origin: Wolverine movie and they are not 100% better than X-men 1. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/82 "2010-07-12T23:02:58Z")
Honestly, I don’t see why the Hulk NEEDS to be in the Avengers movie. It’s not like the movies have stuck slavishly to comic book canon, and it certainly looks like they’re setting up for Cap to be in the Avengers’ first adventure. Does it have to be a Loki-dupes-the-Hulk plot that brings them together? Maybe Hank Pym gathers them together because his runaway robot is too powerful to be stopped by any one hero. Maybe Kang or Immortus gets them together for a time-hunt. Maybe Baron Zemo gather a super-group of every hero’s villains to take over the world, and the heroes realize they need to band together to stop them. Heck with the Hulk. Let the Avengers be the Avengers. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/83 "2010-07-12T23:16:52Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Wait. He has _that_ reputation? I’ve never heard that. When Dollhouse was weak in the beginning, he really admitted it and took responsibility for it, I thought. FOX fucked around with \*Firefly \*so now his fans whine about him not getting a fair shake any time his name is attached to anything. Both \*Drive \*(not Joss’, but it was produced by one of _Angel_’s producers) and \*Dollhouse \*had fans whining that it was going to get canceled prematurely before either series even had its premiere. \*\*MTCicero \*_conflates this with_ X-Men \*and _Aliens 4_, for some reason, even though the former was successful with minimal involvement from Joss, and the latter was a movie written but not directed by Whedon, so the fault really is not with him. In short, he doesn’t like Joss or his fans – which \*can \*be pretty obnoxious, and I say that as someone who owns all of Joss’ TV work besides \*Dollhouse \*-- and seems to take every opportunity to bitch about his work. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Honestly, I don’t see why the Hulk NEEDS to be in the Avengers movie. It’s not like the movies have stuck slavishly to comic book canon, and it certainly looks like they’re setting up for Cap to be in the Avengers’ first adventure. Does it have to be a Loki-dupes-the-Hulk plot that brings them together? Maybe Hank Pym gathers them together because his runaway robot is too powerful to be stopped by any one hero. Maybe Kang or Immortus gets them together for a time-hunt. Maybe Baron Zemo gather a super-group of every hero’s villains to take over the world, and the heroes realize they need to band together to stop them. > > Heck with the Hulk. Let the Avengers be the Avengers. The first movie in any superhero franchise is always the origin story, and Hulk features prominently in it. Plus, the Avengers are Marvel’s JLA, and the Hulk is one of their most recognized names, so it makes sense from a marketing standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/84 "2010-07-12T23:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The first movie in any superhero franchise is always the origin story, and Hulk features prominently in it. Plus, the Avengers are Marvel’s JLA, and the Hulk is one of their most recognized names, so it makes sense from a marketing standpoint. Another factor is this is aimed at a movie audience not a comic book audience. The average movie goer (even for a superhero movie) is not going to recognize who Baron Zemo or Ultron or Kang is. The Hulk however is a known character. So he can be used and the audience will accept that he’s a serious threat requiring several superheroes to band together. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/85 "2010-07-13T00:49:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > A line from the first X-Men movie, said by Storm as she zaps Toad, something along the lines of: > > “Do you know what happens to a toad that’s struck by lightning?” \ “The same thing that happens to anything else.” And, so? I’d bet that unless you knew they were writ by Whedon, and you wanted to dislike them, you wouldn’t have given them more than a moments thought. I mean, I can quote you the bad lines from many other Marvel films- _the entire fucking script_ of Howard the Duck, the 1990 Captain America, the 1989 Punisher, Daredevil, Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D, the 2003 Hulk, not to mention good chunks of Elektra, Fantastic Four and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/86 "2010-07-13T01:11:54Z")
No. It’s been a much reviled line since the movie first came out. Even I think it’s dumb, and as mentioned, I’m a Whedon fanboy. Of course, knowing how it was likely meant to be said, I do blame the actor and director instead of the writer, but it’s still awful as filmed. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/87 "2010-07-13T05:18:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, so? > > I’d bet that unless you knew they were writ by Whedon, and you wanted to dislike them, you wouldn’t have given them more than a moments thought. I mean, I can quote you the bad lines from many other Marvel films- _the entire fucking script_ of Howard the Duck, the 1990 Captain America, the 1989 Punisher, Daredevil, Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D, the 2003 Hulk, not to mention good chunks of Elektra, Fantastic Four and so forth. It’s because a bad line in a bad movie is simply par for the course. There is nothing unreasonable about holding something like _Back to the Future_ to a higher standard than _Manos: The Hands of Fate_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/88 "2010-07-13T06:06:07Z")
Whedon wouldn’t have been my choice for writing or directing an Avengers movie. His greatest strength is inventing interesting characters and he won’t be able to use that in this movie - he’ll be handed a cast of established characters. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/89 "2010-07-13T14:16:30Z")
He did okay in Astonishing X-Men. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/90 "2010-07-13T19:01:03Z")
I liked his line in “Gifted” where he had Kitty tell Colossus(any misrememberances are mine), “If you’re a clone, or a robot, or something that actually believes you are Pitr I can deal, but if you’re just lying to me I swear I’ll fucking kill you!” Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/91 "2010-07-14T00:45:16Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But of course, from my side of the conversation, I feel sorry for you that you just don’t get it. Well, from his other posts it’s clear he doesn’t get much of _anything_, so singling him out for this is kind of pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/92 "2010-07-14T13:16:46Z")
Ohhhh-kay. Preferences for and against Joss Whedon are a matter of opinion, not fact. And opinions, as we know, are something we’re all entitled to. So dial it back, please. Nobody here owns the truth about Whedon’s brilliance, or lack thereof. **Ellen Cherry Cafe Society Moderator** ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/93 "2010-07-24T18:47:23Z")
[Looks like Nathan Fillion will not be Ant-Man, folks.](http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/BrentSprecher/news/?a=20516) Yeah, so I didn’t think it was true anyway, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/94 "2010-07-24T20:21:16Z")
There were rumors? I hadn’t heard of it, but I’m not surprised. One of the more annoying things about the Whedon fandom is that they are so insistent on him casting his alumni in anything he’s attached to. There are probably fans of his out there that are pissed off because Tom Lenk isn’t playing Captain America. It’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/95 "2010-07-24T20:49:52Z")
Here’s the way I’d plot the movies out Thor: Introduce Thor. Bring in the Wasp, some version of Henry Pym, and maybe Hawkeye as secondary characters working for Shield. Some kind of character flaw has to be set up. Captain America: Introduce Captain America. Set it in World War II. End with Cap being frozen in ice. Iron Man III: Follow up on his self-destructive habits. He loses a big fight, the Iron Man suit is confiscated (probably operated by Rhodey) and starts serious drinking. But in the climax he pulls it back together and beats the villain. Have a few scenes with the Shield characters. Avengers: Brings it all together. Hulk goes on a rampage. Thor and Iron Man each try to stop him solo but fail (this is the point of Thor’s flaw from the previous movie). Captain America is discovered and revived. He becomes the linchpin of the new group. All of the heroes work together and beat the Hulk. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/96 "2010-07-25T13:55:52Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > [Looks like Nathan Fillion will not be Ant-Man, folks.](http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/BrentSprecher/news/?a=20516) > > Yeah, so I didn’t think it was true anyway, but there it is. So there _is_ a God, after all? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057/97 "2010-07-25T23:26:50Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > > [@Mahaloth](#): > > > > [Looks like Nathan Fillion will not be Ant-Man, folks.](http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/BrentSprecher/news/?a=20516) > > > > Yeah, so I didn’t think it was true anyway, but there it is. > > So there _is_ a God, after all? **MTCicero** , we get it, you’re not a fan. Stop coming into these threads to spread your contempt. It’s threadshitting, and it’s covered under our “don’t be a jerk” rule. The next time you do it, you’ll get a warning. **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-avengers-movie-discussion-thread-possible-recent-superhero-movie-spoilers/539057.md?page=4)