# The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2010 thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 28, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221 "2009-11-28T07:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/181 "2009-12-03T20:47:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But **Marley** is trying, it seems, to discount his infield hits for not being outfield hits instead of recognizing that they have been mostly groundouts he legged out. _HUH?_ I’m not trying to discount anything. I had never heard about this theory that infield hits are less valuable than other hits, so I asked what it meant. It was posted by **Incensed**. I now understand the rationale, but I don’t think I agree. At least not to the point where you can write off a large chunk of Ichiro’s hits. As you noted, he does not choose between infield hits and outfield hits. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/182 "2009-12-03T20:56:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _HUH?_ I’m not trying to discount anything. I had never heard about this theory that infield hits are less valuable than other hits, so I asked what it meant. It was posted by **Incensed**. I now understand the rationale, but I don’t think I agree. At least not to the point where you can write off a large chunk of Ichiro’s hits. As you noted, he does not choose between infield hits and outfield hits. What does it matter what he chooses to do. We are measuring performance not desire. Anyway no one is saying infield hits don’t have value or even that they aren’t almost as valuable as outfield hits. According to this [article](http://profpeppersassistant.blogspot.com/2009/03/toward-valuing-hit-kept-in-infield.html) an outfield hit is worth 0.477, while a single that stays in the infield is worth 0.409 runs. So roughly speaking 7 infield hits = 6 outfield hits. Certainly that is something to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/183 "2009-12-03T20:58:48Z")
No one’s writing off a large chunk of Ichiro’s hits. The point is this: Let’s say you have two players, Ichiro and Achiro, each with exactly _n_ hits. 30 percent of Ichiro’s _n_ hits are infield singles, while 15 percent of Achiro’s _n_ hits are infield singles. All else being equal (always a dicey proposition), Ichiro has provided less offensive value with his _n_ hits than Achiro has with his _n_ hits. That doesn’t take away from the fact that Ichiro does, in fact, have _n_ hits to his credit. It’s no different than observing that (again, all else being equal) a guy who went 4 for 4 with four doubles had a better offensive game than a guy who went 4 for 4 with four singles. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/184 "2009-12-03T20:59:35Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Sure, it’s half the list. But if you think anyone ever accords those three factors half the _weight_ when making their HOF selections – you included – then you’re consarn crazy. > > Forget their on-field performances; let’s kick Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Mickey Mantle out of the Hall because their character doesn’t measure up. > > Meanwhile, let’s take a good long look at all those MLB lifers out there who ooze integrity, sportsmanship, and character – I hear Mark Lemke is a stand-up guy. > > You’re being ridiculous if you think on-field performance isn’t the overwhelming bulk of what people consider when they think about who’s deserving to enter Cooperstown. And on-field performance is about three things: (1) numbers, whether it’s three thousand hits or five pennants; (2) moments – like Gibson’s homer or Cabrera’s single; and (3) aura – whether someone “feels” like a HOFer. > > I fully admit that people like Blyleven (and Trammell, etc.) are lacking in categories (2) and (3) – that’s exactly why they’re on the outside looking in. But “aura” is driven by some ineffable mix of numbers and moments. And just as the plural of anecdote isn’t data, a collection of “moments,” without more, does not a HOFer make. > > There are no wrong “standards” as long as the voter considers the factors listed by the Hall, in whatever combination. But it’s certainly possible to say that the on-field performance of certain players who are not in the Hall is as good as (or better than) the bulk of comparable players who _have_ been inducted, and – unless there are some specific sportsmanship, integrity, or character issues to point to (as with McGwire or Dick Allen, for instance) – it’s valid to conclude that this makes the excluded player worthy of induction himself. > > Which, I believe, was the point that **Tom Scud** was making. So “please” yourself. Trammel was World Series MVP in 84. He hit 350 in the Championship series and 450 in the Series. That was a pretty big moment. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/185 "2009-12-03T21:03:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Trammel was World Series MVP in 84. He hit 350 in the Championship series and 450 in the Series. That was a pretty big moment. \ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/186 "2009-12-03T21:06:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Trammel was World Series MVP in 84. He hit 350 in the Championship series and 450 in the Series. That was a pretty big moment. He also should have been MVP in 1987 - I think that was the election that made sportswriters stop sending in their ballots early. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/187 "2009-12-03T21:15:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > \It was posted by Incensed. I now understand the rationale, but I don’t think I agree. At least not to the point where you can write off a large chunk of Ichiro’s hits. As you noted, he does not choose between infield hits and outfield hits.\ Again, I’m not trying to write off anything, just illustrate the idea **Hawkeyeop’s** cite addresses. I hadn’t read his post when I started this reply, and was going to estimate that INF singles were about 85-90% as valuable as outfield singles, and lo and behold he delivers a cite that puts it at 85.7%. Point being that if you discount such singles, Ichiro’s SLG%'s would go from .434 to .419. Of course all SLG % are thus inflated, but I venture that Ichiro would be in the top 5 in the live ball era and that average would be closer to 4-8 points. On preview, what **Gadarene** said. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/188 "2009-12-03T21:18:37Z")
> [@Incensed](#): > > **Gadarene’s** first link is interesting-scroll down about 1/3 of the page and it shows that about 39% of Ichiro’s singles are of the infield variety. > > Assuming that an infield single is more comparable in value to a walk than an outfield single, I moved about 20% of his singles into his walks, and viola, a .280 hitter. I don’t get this math. I came up with .295. Converting 20% of his singles to walks subtracts 330 singles, but also 330 at bats. 1700/5769 = .295. And to be honest I think the effect of so many singles being infield hits is pretty overstated. Infield singles almost always advance all runners a base; it’s very unusual to see an infield single that freezes a runner at second or third. In any event, the impact on his on base percentage is zero, and the impact on his slugging percentage is minor. [QUOTE=TomScud] He (Trammell) also should have been MVP in 1987 - I think that was the election that made sportswriters stop sending in their ballots early. [/QUOTE] I’m a Blue Jays fan and even I was appalled by the writers choosing Bell over Trammell. That was not a good year for awards voting. That’s one of the reasons you can’t ascribe a lot of value to one or two awards. Nobody thinks George Bell was a better player than Alan Trammell just because one dimwit too many was impressed by his 1987 RBI total, do they? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/189 "2009-12-03T21:34:45Z")
Marley23: > [@](#): > > Combine what he’s already done with his pioneering place in the game and there’s no way he wouldn’t be admitted. Pioneering how? Even if you ignore the occasional outlier like that Japanese guy who played a bit for the Giants in the 60’s, you’d have to credit Hideo Nomo with pioneering the jumping of Japanese players to MLB a good 6 years before Ichiro. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/190 "2009-12-03T21:35:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t get this math. I came up with .295. Converting 20% of his singles to walks subtracts 330 singles, but also 330 at bats. 1700/5769 = .295. > > And to be honest I think the effect of so many singles being infield hits is pretty overstated. Infield singles almost always advance all runners a base; it’s very unusual to see an infield single that freezes a runner at second or third. \ Good catch; I was in a spreadsheet and had entered the PA and AB’s by hand instead of summing them from their components, then forgot to make the adjustment. I also misspelled ‘voila’, ‘viola’, because I’m an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/191 "2009-12-03T21:41:03Z")
Shit, I did the same thing in my last post regarding the SLG%, adjusted number should be .426, not .419. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/192 "2009-12-03T21:41:11Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Pioneering how? Even if you ignore the occasional outlier like that Japanese guy who played a bit for the Giants in the 60’s, you’d have to credit Hideo Nomo with pioneering the jumping of Japanese players to MLB a good 6 years before Ichiro. Possibly in the fact that Ichiro was the first position player from Japan to make it big. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/193 "2009-12-03T21:47:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Pioneering how? Even if you ignore the occasional outlier like that Japanese guy who played a bit for the Giants in the 60’s, you’d have to credit Hideo Nomo with pioneering the jumping of Japanese players to MLB a good 6 years before Ichiro. He was the first Japanese position player in the MLB. It was accepted by that point that the best Japanese pitchers could compete in the majors, but it seemed to me that the prevailing wisdom was that the hitters and position players couldn’t hack it since the Japanese leagues have smaller fields and such. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/194 "2009-12-04T00:44:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He was the first Japanese position player in the MLB. It was accepted by that point that the best Japanese pitchers could compete in the majors, but it seemed to me that the prevailing wisdom was that the hitters and position players couldn’t hack it since the Japanese leagues have smaller fields and such. I thought it was mainly that the Japanese _players_ are smaller (and thus theoretically weaker) than their American counterparts. Ironically, Ichiro is small even for a Japanese player, and that’s a major reason he wasn’t selected until the 4th and final round of the Japanese draft. despite a stellar high school career. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/195 "2009-12-04T01:04:02Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > \ Not the same. Trammel was a very good player. He did not just bump into the pitches in a World Series once. By the way Polanco signed with the Phillies for 3 years. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/196 "2009-12-04T01:16:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t get this math. I came up with .295. Converting 20% of his singles to walks subtracts 330 singles, but also 330 at bats. 1700/5769 = .295. > > And to be honest I think the effect of so many singles being infield hits is pretty overstated. Infield singles almost always advance all runners a base; it’s very unusual to see an infield single that freezes a runner at second or third. In any event, **the impact on his on base percentage is zero** , and the impact on his slugging percentage is minor. [Emphasis mine] And that’s where a goodly chunk of an infield hit’s value comes from-avoiding the out. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/197 "2009-12-04T03:04:29Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > [Emphasis mine] > > And that’s where a goodly chunk of an infield hit’s value comes from-avoiding the out. Outfield hits, too. 🙂 The main argument **against** Ichiro so far, really, is that he’s had a short career (in the major leagues.) In terms of quality his peak is good enough, he just hasn’t been around long. So the discussion really won’t be over until we know how long he’ll last. He certainly hasn’t shown any signs of slowing down so far. He was pretty much just as good in 2009 as he’s always been. Absent a serious injury there isn’t any reason to think 2010 will be much different. I’m not sure he’ll make it to 3,000 hits but I wouldn’t bet anything against it that I couldn’t afford to lose. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/198 "2009-12-04T10:03:44Z")
Ichiro to his Owniro, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/199 "2009-12-04T16:13:11Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Ichiro to his Owniro, I guess. Report to the principal’s office. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/200 "2009-12-08T00:04:33Z")
Well, the Veterans’ Committee selections are in - congratulations, Whitey Herzog and (Umpire) Doug Harvey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=11)