# The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2010 thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 28, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221 "2009-11-28T07:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/281 "2010-01-08T00:04:41Z")
The fact that McGwire has not gotten in, does not bode well for Bonds and others who are presumed to be on steroids. McGwire has the testimony to haunt him too, but someone has to bust the bubble. Sportswriters will have some soul searching to do. Can someone actually not vote for Bonds? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/282 "2010-01-08T01:57:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Why? Gold Gloves? You mean the award Palmerio got for some quality DHing? Visquel was a good defense SS, but not an all time great one, and certainly not in Ozzie’s league. His longevity is impressive, but I don’t see much of a case. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/283 "2010-01-08T01:59:57Z")
The guy with the all time best fielding % in MLB history and 2 of the best fielding seasons all time wasn’t an all time great SS? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/284 "2010-01-08T02:32:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The guy with the all time best fielding % in MLB history and 2 of the best fielding seasons all time wasn’t an all time great SS? **Nobody’s said Vizquel wasn’t a great shortstop.** I am disagreeing with your assertion that Vizquel was “probably the **greatest** defensive middle infielder of all time.” That’s a very different claim from just saying he was “great.” I do not believe he was, or even that he probably was. Ozzie Smith was the greatest defensive shortstop of all time, in my honest opinion. If I am not mistaken all advanced defensive metrics place him clearly as the best shortstop of modern baseball. Omar was certainly a fine defensive shortstop but Ozzie was, to my eyes, the best defensive infielder I have ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/285 "2010-01-08T02:39:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > **Nobody’s said Vizquel wasn’t a great shortstop.** **Hawkeyeop** said exactly that. OPINIONS!!! ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/286 "2010-01-08T02:49:49Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The guy with the all time best fielding % in MLB history and 2 of the best fielding seasons all time wasn’t an all time great SS? Correct. Fielding percentage is a flawed stat in determining fielding performance. For starters it an opinion stat, a favorable home town scorer can drastically lower a player’s error totals. Beyond that it doesn’t measure range, all else being equal a player who gets to 700 balls and boots 10 is less valuable than one who gets to 750 balls and boots 20, yet fp says the opposite. There are more problems with it, but those are the most important. In 1993 Omar Vizquel got to a career high 735 balls. Ozzie Smith reached 771 8 times including a whopping 933 in 1980. Not in the same ballpark. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/287 "2010-01-08T02:57:16Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > **Hawkeyeop** said exactly that. OPINIONS!!! No, he said he wasn’t an “all time great”. COMPREHENSION!!!1111!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/288 "2010-01-08T03:50:15Z")
I think stat geeks are deluding themselves when they say they can rate a players fielding. At least to a meaningful level. Then they pretend they compare them to other players and eras. Infielders have to deal with short hops and bad bounces. Well, not Ozzie, he played on carpet. But each ground ball is a little different in speed, spin and bounce. I can not accept their ratings as definitive. I will agree that after a while you know a good defensive player from a weaker one. But only on general terms. Ozzie was a very good defensive player as is practically every major league shortstop. He may have been the best of his time but Vizquel, Trammel, Yount and others could cover a field very well. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/289 "2010-01-08T13:22:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I think stat geeks are deluding themselves when they say they can rate a players fielding. At least to a meaningful level. I propose we ask the mods to deny gonzo the ability to respond to discussions involving defense. gonzo, you trot out the exact same arguments every single time, and refuse to even put one element of thought into the fact that there simply is no fancy “formula” or “rating” involved in adding up Putouts and Assists. > [@](#): > > Infielders have to deal with short hops and bad bounces. Well, not Ozzie, he played on carpet. Or lying about Ozzie Smith’s 978 games played on natural grass. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/290 "2010-01-08T13:38:05Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Ozzie Smith’s 978 games played on natural grass. Can you spit out some defensive stats (range factor, etc.) about those games? It would be interesting to see how much Ozzie’s rep was burnished by his “advantage” in playing on turf. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/291 "2010-01-08T14:03:16Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Can you spit out some defensive stats (range factor, etc.) about those games? It would be interesting to see how much Ozzie’s rep was burnished by his “advantage” in playing on turf. I was going to in that post, but baseball-reference doesn’t split out defensive stats like they do offense. I’m sure it’s available somewhere. Either way, his 4 years playing on grass in San Diego were absolutely outstanding. For his career, Ozzie got to and made a play on an average of 5.03 balls a game. For his 4 years in San Diego, he got to 5.45 balls. In St. Louis, it dropped to 4.90 (4.93 if you discount his final three seasons). For apples to apples, in his first 4 years in St. Louis, he got to 5.39. > **[Ozzie Smith Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More |...](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/smithoz01.shtml)** > > Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Ozzie Smith. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com In Vizquel’s career, he averaged 4.36 a game. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/292 "2010-01-08T14:38:18Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I wasn’t necessarily shilling for his election, but he would fit in at about the 20th percentile or so (i.e. worse players are in the Hall). I just found it a bit amusing that someone was so rudely offended that 7 voters would deign to vote for him, when he probably deserved around 50 votes or so. Not so much offended as annoyed by token votes. There’s legit debate at the top of the list for 2010 (Dawson, Blyleven, Alamor, Mac) that it annoys me that 7 voters spent time casting a vote for Ventura. The more I look at the process, the more annoyed I get. I understand that there’s no way to fix the “first ballot” distinction (I feel it’s useless) and there’s no way to stop friendly votes at the bottom of the ballot, but I wish there was. I think we need 2 things to happen. First, we need someone to get in with 100% of the votes. Let’s remove the old arguement that no one has ever gotten in with 100% as a motivator for folks not to vote. Secondly, I’d like to raise the 5% needed to stay on the ballot to 10%. I’m not strictly small hall, but a little smaller wouldn’t be the worst thing. I’d also like to take the votes away from those who abstain year after year. Eh…I’m just cranky about the results this year. My trip to Cooperstown every year is a highlight for me, and I imagine one-sided debates about how much the writers suck this summer. Maybe when the weather gets warmer my mood will improve. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/293 "2010-01-08T16:42:11Z")
So 7 people voted for Ventura-so what? They knew he had no chance, it’s doubtful that their doing so “stole” a vote from another more deserving player (tho, as I said, that’s about to change); they just wanted to express that he was likely a favorite player of theirs when active. I honestly don’t see why this is grounds to get thy panties in a knot. And like I also said, Ventura wouldn’t stick out too badly among HoF 3B: I think I could probably put him above George Kell, Freddie Lindstrom, and Jimmy Collins. There’s only 10 3B in the Hall, which definitely seems to be on the low side to me (Santo is the best eligible 3B not in tho and I’d vote for him first). ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/294 "2010-01-08T17:17:46Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > So 7 people voted for Ventura-so what? My “So What” boils down to…Vote for Hall of Famers. Don’t withold votes for someone you’re going to vote for next year. Don’t cast token votes. Don’t make the process more unwieldy than it needs to be. I know that’s not the way it is, but it’s what I want. Here’s your ballot. Who’s a Hall of Famer? Vote for them. Simple. Then we can discuss the merits of guys who got in or almost got in. I have to question the way a guys mind works if he think Karros is a Hall of Famer…maybe his other criteria is lacking as well. If a writer thinks Alamor’s spitting means he’ll never vote for him, I’ll respect that (I don’t agree) but for guys to come out and say “Not on his first ballot” annoys me. Token votes annoy me too. > [@](#): > > they just wanted to express that he was likely a favorite player of theirs when active. I honestly don’t see why this is grounds to get thy panties in a knot. If a writer loved a guy so much, he can write a damn column about him. That way votes are what they are…votes for the Hall of Fame. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/295 "2010-01-08T18:17:11Z")
Ventura is a bad example. Top defensive 3rd baseman and good hitter at under represented position. He deserved some votes. More so than say Jim Rice… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/296 "2010-01-08T18:39:46Z")
Andy, your post should be printed and attached to every Hall of Fame ballot issued to BBWAA members from now on. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/297 "2010-01-08T19:05:38Z")
[http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely](http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely) Trammell should get more respect. Yount 285/342/430 Alan 285/352/415 Yet Yount walks in and Trammell barely stays on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/298 "2010-01-08T19:10:36Z")
[And a comparable-stats argument for Dwight Evans](http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2010/01/hold_your_head.html) > [@](#): > > Andre Dawson was the only player elected. He played 2,627 games over 21 seasons from 1976-96 and hit .279 with a .323 on-base percentage and a .482 slugging percentage. He had 438 home runs and 1,591 RBI. “The Hawk” won eight Gold Gloves and was an All-Star eight times. > > Then there was a player who played in 2,606 games over 20 seasons from 1972-91. He hit .272 with a .370 on-base percentage and a .470 slugging percentage. He has 385 home runs and 1,384 RBI. This player won eight Gold Gloves and was an All-Star three times. > > But Dwight Evans lasted only three years on the ballot, never getting more than 10.4 percent of the vote. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/299 "2010-01-08T19:12:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely](http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely) Trammell should get more respect. > Yount 285/342/430 > Alan 285/352/415 > Yet Yount walks in and Trammell barely stays on the ballot. Yount has a bit less than 3,000 more plate appearances than Trammell. That’s about 4 1/2 extra seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/300 "2010-01-08T19:15:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely](http://freep.com/article/20100108/COL22/1080366/1319/Should-Alan-Trammell-be-in-the-Hall?-Absolutely) Trammell should get more respect. > Yount 285/342/430 > Alan 285/352/415 > Yet Yount walks in and Trammell barely stays on the ballot. 3000 is pretty magical to voters. They were extremely similar players, but Yount’s ability to stay healthy for 550 more games over the same amount of years gives him a much bigger advantage. 550 is 3 years of games. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=16)