# The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2010 thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 28, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221 "2009-11-28T07:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/141 "2009-12-03T05:01:24Z")
Ichiro is in. Combine what he’s already done with his pioneering place in the game and there’s no way he wouldn’t be admitted. The fact that he’s likely to play a few more years cements it. He might need five or six years to reach 3,000 hits, but even if he doesn’t quite get there it would be an amazing total considering he was 27 when he joined the Mariners. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/142 "2009-12-03T08:15:14Z")
And technically speaking, he’s already over 3000 hits when you combine his MLB numbers with his Japanese League numbers. He also had a 200-hit season in Japan (first player there to do it, and in a 130-game season), so he “technically” has already matched Rose’s record there. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/143 "2009-12-03T13:57:32Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Plus, Ichiro’s the kind of player who could play into his mid 40s, giving him ten more seasons. The numbers he could put up in ten seasons will put him in rarified company indeed. Yup. It will entirely depend on how long he wants to keep playing. He’ll make Julio Franco look like a pup if he wants. I see he missed 16 games this year - what the hell? Slacker! And has it only been 9 seasons?!? It seems like much longer, hasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/144 "2009-12-03T15:03:05Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > For or against? Or do you mean he’ll be such an obvious lock that no discussion is necessary? > > Me, his D & baserunning compensate perfectly adequately for his lack of power, which is irrelevant anyway because the voters won’t deny the Hall to someone with 9+ straight 200 hit seasons. There have been some insanely long and passionate debates about Ichiro’s Hall-worthiness over at Baseball Think Factory, and at least a couple of fairly well-respected posters think that given the probable length of his MLB career, he doesn’t measure up as a HOFer. I disagree with them, but man will they defend that position. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/145 "2009-12-03T15:09:38Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > There have been some insanely long and passionate debates about Ichiro’s Hall-worthiness over at Baseball Think Factory, and at least a couple of fairly well-respected posters think that given the probable length of his MLB career, he doesn’t measure up as a HOFer. That’s crazy, assuming we’re talking the real Hall of Fame and not some imaginary inner-circle Hall where the worst player is Frank Robinson. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/146 "2009-12-03T15:25:49Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > That’s crazy, assuming we’re talking the real Hall of Fame and not some imaginary inner-circle Hall where the worst player is Frank Robinson. A couple of the discussions are here; read for yourself: [Consistent Greatness Creating Future Hall of Fame Buzz for Ichiro (784 comments)](http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/mlb_consistent_greatness_creating_future_hall_of_fame_buzz_for/P0/) [Ichiro Making Run at Record Hall of Fame (400 comments)](http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/mlb_ichiro_making_run_at_record_hall_of_fame/) (If you can believe it, those are two of the shorter threads about it – I’m pretty sure there’s one that exceeds 1800 comments.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/147 "2009-12-03T15:43:23Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Sure, it’s half the list. But if you think anyone ever accords those three factors half the _weight_ when making their HOF selections – you included – then you’re consarn crazy. I didn’t say that. What voters should do is certainly not always what the rules require them to do. And in the cases of those intangibles, it’s hard to differentiate between most players, anyway. Few stand out either way. \*Most \*guys just work hard and play the game to their best, and behave themselves like adults. > [@](#): > > Forget their on-field performances; let’s kick Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Mickey Mantle out of the Hall because their character doesn’t measure up. I didn’t say that either. Come on now, sonny. Sportsmanship is one of the factor to be considered, not a pass-fail criterion. Just like the rules say, okay? Those guys should have been, and were , discounted for those things. Robbie should be and probably will too, but slightly. Mac should be and has been, but heavily. > [@](#): > > You’re being ridiculous if you think on-field performance isn’t the overwhelming bulk of what people consider when they think about who’s deserving to enter Cooperstown. Of course it is, in practice. When did I say otherwise? > [@](#): > > And on-field performance is about three things: (1) numbers, whether it’s three thousand hits or five pennants; (2) moments – like Gibson’s homer or Cabrera’s single; and (3) aura – whether someone “feels” like a HOFer. Precisely. Thanks, btw, for acknowledging, as some here would not, that moments and aura are real and significant. > [@](#): > > There are no wrong “standards” as long as the voter considers the factors listed by the Hall, in whatever combination. But it’s certainly possible to say that the on-field performance of certain players who are not in the Hall is as good as (or better than) the bulk of comparable players who _have_ been inducted, and – unless there are some specific sportsmanship, integrity, or character issues to point to (as with McGwire or Dick Allen, for instance) – it’s valid to conclude that this makes the excluded player worthy of induction himself. It’s valid to conclude that Bert belongs, sure - but it’s valid to conclude he doesn’t, too, for reasons you’ve acknowledged here. And, once again, if you have to think about it much, then the right answer is probably No. > [@](#): > > Which, I believe, was the point that **Tom Scud** was making. So “please” yourself. No, he was pointedly ignoring the second half of the standards, out of apparent pure pissiness at seeing questioning the Received Wisdom of Blyleven’s candidacy being obviously correct. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/148 "2009-12-03T16:03:06Z")
In general, what statistics are useful for comparing 2 pitchers from the same era? I know ERA+ and WHIP. What else is a good indicator? ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/149 "2009-12-03T17:40:21Z")
**Gadarene’s** first link is interesting-scroll down about 1/3 of the page and it shows that about 39% of Ichiro’s singles are of the infield variety. Assuming that an infield single is more comparable in value to a walk than an outfield single, I moved about 20% of his singles into his walks, and viola, a .280 hitter. I suspect his true offensive value is somewhat higher than that, but the simple fact is that Ichiro’s offense is vastly overrated, and that is why you’ll see arguments against his enshrinement. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/150 "2009-12-03T17:44:57Z")
Wait, why is an infield hit worth less than an outfield hit? And why do we care what it does to Ichiro’s batting average when nobody cares about batting average anymore? I thought getting on base is what’s important, and whether it’s by infield or outfield hit or walk, he’s exceptional at that. (Okay, yes, an infield single is less likely to score a runner or advance him an additional base. Still.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/151 "2009-12-03T17:50:28Z")
Hell, yeah - an infield hit is \*harder \*to get. Does it get discounted because the batter had the speed to leg it out anyway? That’s silly. Suzuki’s speed is part of his superiority as a player, on both offense and defense. Dude’s in. Speech oughta be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/152 "2009-12-03T18:02:12Z")
An infield single is less valuable than outfield single because it is less likely to move a runner an additional base, i.e. first to third, second to home, that sort of thing. Hell, you sometimes see runners on second fail to advance even one base on an infield single, much like a walk. I mentioned what it would do to his BA because a huge part of Ichiro’s cachet is his .333 career average; I was illustrating how empty it is. And I never said that getting an infield single was easier, just less valuable. Ichiro has never lead the league in OBP and is 188th career in OBP-hardly exceptional for a HOFer. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/153 "2009-12-03T18:03:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wait, why is an infield hit worth less than an outfield hit? > > … > > (Okay, yes, an infield single is less likely to score a runner or advance him an additional base. Still.) There’s your answer. With a man on base you’d rather have a hit to the outfield. Over time, a guy with significantly more infield hits but the same numbers otherwise will have contributed fewer runs in the form of those advanced runners. I’m not commenting on Ichiro’s merit, but it’s a sound principle in general. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/154 "2009-12-03T18:07:10Z")
Except that an infield single (except for a bunt) is the result of the batter having enough speed to prevent a weakly hit ball from being just a groundout. That’s what you have to compare it to, not an outfield single. It’s not like the batter \*chooses \*to hit the ball weakly instead of strongly. Suzuki has turned a lot of outs into hits. Give him his due for that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/155 "2009-12-03T18:13:19Z")
Right, but we’re comparing Suzuki to people like Tony Gwynn or Roberto Clemente, who hit lots of outfield singles. If you had a guy on second, 2 out, and (thanks to a double switch) the pitcher due up next, would you want Gwynn or Suzuki up to bat? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/156 "2009-12-03T18:17:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except that an infield single (except for a bunt) is the result of the batter having enough speed to prevent a weakly hit ball from being just a groundout. That’s what you have to compare it to, not an outfield single. It’s not like the batter \*chooses \*to hit the ball weakly instead of strongly. > > Suzuki has turned a lot of outs into hits. Give him his due for that. With Ichiro I would say his style is on purpose. Not that your point makes any sense regardless. Can we not punish David Ortiz for failing to beat out groundouts because he didn’t choose to be slow? Infield hits are worse than outfield hits, but are still better than walks in that they can advance runners on 2nd and 3rd when there is no runner on first. The differences between each is pretty minor though, the main thing is to not get out. Ichiro excellent speed and base running needs to be taken into account as well. Throw in his durability, plus defense, and his Japanese years and he is a shoo-in for me. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/157 "2009-12-03T18:18:05Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > shoe-in shoo-in. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/158 "2009-12-03T18:18:18Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Right, but we’re comparing Suzuki to people like Tony Gwynn or Roberto Clemente, who hit lots of outfield singles. If you had a guy on second, 2 out, and (thanks to a double switch) the pitcher due up next, would you want Gwynn or Suzuki up to bat? Ichiro. Both would get walked, so I’ll take the faster base runner. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/159 "2009-12-03T18:19:07Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Ichiro. Both would get walked, so I’ll take the faster base runner. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221/160 "2009-12-03T18:29:49Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Not that your point makes any sense regardless. Can we not punish David Ortiz for failing to beat out groundouts because he didn’t choose to be slow? Both players are what they are. Their physical attributes are part of how good they are. Suzuki is fast and that makes him better. Ortiz is not and that hurts him. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then :rolleyes:. > [@](#): > > Infield hits are worse than outfield hits So? That isn’t the comparison! Infield hits are better than _groundouts_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-hall-of-fame-class-of-2010-thread/519221.md?page=9)