# The Baseball in September Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176 "2004-09-26T16:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/21 "2004-09-27T15:35:49Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Twins fan here… > > don’t mind me…I’ll just sit here and gloat. > > 🙂 Gloat over what? That the only reason your team has been able to make the playoffs the last three years (including this one) is because of their schedule and that they’re not good enough to make it out of the first round? The entire division should be relegated to AAA. One and done. What a waste of a playoff spot. They should give it to one of the real teams that aren’t going to make it - Oakland, Anaheim or Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/22 "2004-09-27T15:42:52Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Gloat over what? Had Bud Selig his way, the Twins wouldn’t even exist right now. I’d say a little gloating is not out of place. On the bright side, the Orioles can still finish at .500 or so. And the Yankees and the Red Sox both stink. So there. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/23 "2004-09-27T16:17:41Z")
All those millions Angelos spent have really helped his team break that stranglehold they have on 4th in the East. You guys must be positively giddy in 3rd right now. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/24 "2004-09-27T16:33:51Z")
_straightens his St. Louis hat and smiles_ Don’t mind me, I’m just waiting to find out who we’re gonna be playing (I’m thinking a repeat of that Braves-Cards LDS we swept would be nice.) ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/25 "2004-09-27T16:43:41Z")
Personally, **brian** , I’d rather go for that LCS where y’all lead the series 3-1, then we came back and won 3 straight:D ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/26 "2004-09-27T16:45:04Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > _straightens his St. Louis hat and smiles_ > > Don’t mind me, I’m just waiting to find out who we’re gonna be playing (I’m thinking a repeat of that Braves-Cards LDS we swept would be nice.) Ugh. Don’t get me started on the Braves. I’m still stinging from being a game away from the World Series back in 1996, and watching the Cardinals drop three straight to let those guys go back to the show. :mad: I’m feeling good about the Cardinals chances this year, but I’m not going to get gloaty. There are still plenty of chances to unravel, and it’s scaring the bejeezus out of me. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/27 "2004-09-27T18:33:14Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > _straightens his St. Louis hat and smiles_ > > Don’t mind me, I’m just waiting to find out who we’re gonna be playing (I’m thinking a repeat of that Braves-Cards LDS we swept would be nice.) Please do me a favor and tell Rolen that his vacation is over. He’s on my Roto team and I need his stick back and I need it now! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/28 "2004-09-27T19:36:59Z")
Dodgers magic number is five after taking two of three at Candlestick 2.0. It’s ironic that they won the two games where they pitched to Barry. If the Cubbies can halfway manage to get their shit togther, the Giants will be the odd men out. I can’t believe that the Bums have managed to keep it together given their starting pitching but somehow they do. The Pads are going to play you guys tough while the Rockies are thinking about their summer vacations. It could all be over before you even get back to L.A. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/29 "2004-09-27T19:50:13Z")
I could honestly care less which team gets the NL Wild Card, so long as it isn’t the Giants. Just so people will shut up about Barry Bonds deserving the MVP. Last I checked, it helps your MVP voting if your team actually **makes** the playoffs. Home runs aside, the guy can’t hold a candle to Albert Pujols in the “most valuable player” contest. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/30 "2004-09-27T20:00:35Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Just so people will shut up about Barry Bonds deserving the MVP. Last I checked, it helps your MVP voting if your team actually **makes** the playoffs. Home runs aside, the guy can’t hold a candle to Albert Pujols in the “most valuable player” contest. :rolleyes: That’s either because you’re a biased Cards fan or just really ignorant about what Bonds is doing in San Fran. He’s positively carrying that team. Whether they make the playoffs or not, Barry Bonds is the MVP. He had no Rolen or Pujols or Edmonds or any semblance of a pitching staff outside of Schmidt to help him, either. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/31 "2004-09-27T20:34:52Z")
My grandfather used to take my father to Brooklyn Dodger games in the 1940’s. I am a third generation Dodger fan and I still think Barry deserves the MVP. No one is more valuable to their team than Barry is to the Giants. Take away Bonds and the Giants are the D-Backs. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/32 "2004-09-27T20:37:50Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > That’s either because you’re a biased Cards fan or just really ignorant about what Bonds is doing in San Fran. Nice. I wasn’t aware that Barry was your uncle. Let’s keep it civil, creampuff. > [@Neorotik](#): > > He’s positively carrying that team. Whether they make the playoffs or not, Barry Bonds is the MVP. He had no Rolen or Pujols or Edmonds or any semblance of a pitching staff outside of Schmidt to help him, either. I am not downplaying Bonds’ achievements. What I’m saying is, Bonds will end up getting a lot of votes not for his achievements in 2004, but his reaching of 700 home runs and the collected achievements of his career. And as far as the player that has most significantly helped his team achieve, I’m sorry – that’s Albert Pujols. Without him, the Cardinals likely would have not made the playoffs, much less owned the best record in the bigs. I will refrain from asking how you’ll feel about Bonds as MVP [if Friday’s test comes back with a bad grade.](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1889466) ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/33 "2004-09-27T20:58:11Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Nice. I wasn’t aware that Barry was your uncle. Let’s keep it civil, creampuff. That was civil. It’s a fact. Either you’re not sufficiently informed about what Bonds is doing in SF (hence, ignorant of his achievements) or you’re a biased Cards fan. However, if you stoop to namecalling again, then this will quickly become uncivil. > [@](#): > > I am not downplaying Bonds’ achievements. What I’m saying is, Bonds will end up getting a lot of votes not for his achievements in 2004, but his reaching of 700 home runs and the collected achievements of his career. > > And as far as the player that has most significantly helped his team achieve, I’m sorry – that’s Albert Pujols. Without him, the Cardinals likely would have not made the playoffs, much less owned the best record in the bigs. Really? Do you have any evidence to back that up? St. Louis had the best pitching staff in the National League. San Francisco had the fifth worst. Outside of Barry Bonds, SF has only two players with a VORP over 30. St. Louis has three. Of course, SF’s two players have VORPs of 37 and 45 while St. Louis’s 3 are 97, 72 and 31. In other words, SF’s next best two players are only half as productive as StL’s next best two players. So let’s sum up. St. Louis had the best pitching staff in the League and two guys in Rolen and Edmonds that nearly matched Pujol’s production. And you still submit that without Pujols they wouldn’t have made the playoffs? I scoff. Meanwhile, Bonds has had one of the worst pitching staffs in the League, and his next two most productive players are only HALF has good as the next two most productive players in St. Louis, and he still has this miserable team in the hunt for a playoff spot. How is Pujols more deserving of the award than Bonds, by any rational metric? > [@](#): > > I will refrain from asking how you’ll feel about Bonds as MVP [if Friday’s test comes back with a bad grade.](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1889466) Well, that will change matters. I doubt it will, though. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/34 "2004-09-27T21:51:57Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Just so people will shut up about Barry Bonds deserving the MVP. Last I checked, it helps your MVP voting if your team actually **makes** the playoffs. Home runs aside, the guy can’t hold a candle to Albert Pujols in the “most valuable player” contest. :rolleyes: Oh, sweet Og in a candy store. The MVP is not a team performance award; we have something for that. It’s called - what, you guessed it already? That’s the ticket! It’s the playoffs! I actually went to the trouble of counting up the number of times the MVP of a league was also on a playoff team, and that percent is under 70 for each league. It was 63% for the NL and 68% for the AL. Now, my numbers might be slightly off, but the myth that a team MUST make the playoffs for an MVP voting to be justified is complete crap. Now onto the idea that Pujols - or anyone - is having anywhere near the year Bonds is having. Shall we compare stats? Oh do, let’s. ```auto Name ABs Avg Hits HR BB SO Runs RBI OPS Bonds 360 .372 134 45 222 39 125 101 1.453 Pujols 570 .330 188 46 81 49 130 120 1.070 Rolen 482 .320 154 33 68 88 107 121 1.021 Edmonds 479 .311 149 42 100 142 101 111 1.095 Beltre 574 .341 196 47 50 85 102 117 1.037 ``` All of those guys are having fine years. Barry’s offensive production is coming with 100-200 fewer ABs than the rest of these guys. It’s bloody staggering. If those 222 walks were, say, Jim Edmonds’ 100 walks, Barry would have 15 more homers. He’s hitting them at a rate of 1 every 8 at-bats. He homers more often than he strikes out, for cryin’ in the rain. He walks more than five times for every strikeout. The top six (not including him) RBI men in San Francisco’s lineup have less than 450 RBI. St. Louis’ top six have 534. Despite this, Barry trails only one of the above players in runs scored by 5 - and that’s to a man with two hundred more ABs! The reason for most of this? People are afraid to pitch to him. Hell, a man hits a homer every two and a half games, you’d be walking him intentionally as well unless you had soem serious fireballers. Without Pujols or one of the other two here, the Cardinals might not be in the playoffs. Without Barry, the Giants would be challenging the Diamondbacks. He leads their team in all but four (hits, doubles, triples and fewest strikeouts) offensive categories, and in several it isn’t even close. The top four Giants with walks have six more than Barry - total. Bonds, so to speak, in a walk. The others have had fine years. I’d go Bonds, Beltre, Cardinal trio. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/35 "2004-09-27T23:40:17Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Gloat over what? That the only reason your team has been able to make the playoffs the last three years (including this one) is because of their schedule and that they’re not good enough to make it out of the first round? The entire division should be relegated to AAA. > > One and done. What a waste of a playoff spot. They should give it to one of the real teams that aren’t going to make it - Oakland, Anaheim or Texas. They made it to the ALCS two years ago and they beat the A’s to get there. They would have beaten teh Angels too and gone to the WS if it hadn’t been for that fucking monkey. This year the Twins have won more than 90 games and they have the CY Young winner in Santanna. Go ahead, take the Twins lightly. See what happens in October. Twins, bitches! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/36 "2004-09-27T23:44:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Go ahead, take the Twins lightly. See what happens in October. > > Twins, bitches! 🆒 Y’all make sure that fan isn’t acting quite so intermittent next time, k?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/37 "2004-09-28T01:30:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They made it to the ALCS two years ago and they beat the A’s to get there. They would have beaten teh Angels too and gone to the WS if it hadn’t been for that fucking monkey. Oh please. The only reason the Twins made it to the ALCS was because they lucked out with Chokeland in the division series. And the Rally Monkey had nothing to do with the shellacking the mighty Angels administered to the Twinkies. Only two of the five games were close. The other three were your garden variety complete annihilations. (Guess which team I cheer for? :)) > [@](#): > > This year the Twins have won more than 90 games and they have the CY Young winner in Santanna. He’s good. But he’s still a Twin. I refuse to believe that a team owned by a completely evil bastard like Pohlad will win right after a team owned by another completely evil bastard (Loria) won it. The Twins won’t make it past whoever comes out of the AL East (although, I’m hoping they will, to be honest - we can renact the 2002 ALCS with another buttwhupping). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/38 "2004-09-28T01:57:49Z")
I won’t disagree with you on Pohlad being evil. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/39 "2004-09-28T03:53:14Z")
I’m going to go a step further. I believe that Barry Bonds’s 2004 is in fact the most valuable season any player has ever had, in the entire history of modern professional baseball. I believe it is more valuable than any season ever posted by Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Walter Johnson, or anyone else. Maybe not quite as valuable as Honus Wagner’s crazy 1908 season, but I am absolutely certain it is the most valuable season since the integration of baseball. While Albert Pujols is having a very fine year, I am not even convinced he’s the second most valuable player on his own team; Rolen and Edmonds are equally valuable. Furthermore it is almost 100% certain that St. Louis would win the division without Pujols; a 15 game lead is way more than any one player (except Bonds) is worth. Let me try to make this case without resorting to complicated things like VORP or Win Shares. Here are the most prolific offenses in the National League as of September 27: 1. St. Louis, 827 runs 2. San Francisco, 819 runs 3. Colorado, 808 runs 4. Philadelphia, 797 runs Given that San Francisco plays in the league’s worst hitter’s park, except maybe Petco, it is quite reasonable to conclude that they have, in fact, the league’s top offense. Now here are their rankings, out of 16 National League teams, in three offensive categories: On base percentage - .358, first Slugging percentage - .438, fifth Stolen bases - 41, sixteenth Obviously they are not scoring all those runs with their blazing speed. They are doing it primarily by getting on base a LOT - they have an OBP twelve points higher than any other team. There’s more room between them and the second place team (Colorado) than there is between Colorado and sixth place. The only reason they have an OBP that high is Barry Bonds. If Bonds got on base at a normal clip for a left fielder - let’s be generous and say .360, since it’s a hitter’s position - the Giants would have had 146 fewer baserunners this year just from him getting on base. That’s SIXTEEN points of on base percentage off the team’s total… dropping them to seventh in the league. An average left fielder would also have hit 25-30 fewer home runs and would get fewer base hits per at bat, dropping the team’s slugging percentage about 28 points, dropping them from fifth to eleventh. And I’m being conservative, because I am not counting the benefit of giving an additional 146 at bats to his teammates - but you have to count that, which is why teams with high OBPs score so many runs. That’s got to be worth 20 runs right there. Without Barry Bonds, the best offense in the National League would be average at best. Bonds has created 183 runs - a difference of what, 110, 120 runs over AVERAGE? Without him they’d be so far out of contention they’d need a ladder to see third place. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176/40 "2004-09-28T04:17:28Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Just kidding. Sort of. I live in Chicago, and if the Cubs get into the playoffs and the Giants don’t my life will become a living hell. It doesn’t have to be. Just find some White Sox fans to hang out with. > [@](#): > > At least until the Cubs fall apart and fail miserably. (It’s rather comforting knowing this is inevitable.) Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. One of these years the bastards are going to win. I recommend standby plans for travel to Mongolia during the World Series. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-baseball-in-september-thread/266176.md?page=3)