The Baseball Strike - Who is less wrong?

RickJay, how conclusive is the actual evidence that the owners have lied and cheated etc.? Is this just your opinion?

Also, I think it is simplistic to atribute the enormous increases in players salaries over the years since free agency to free agency. There has also been an enormous explosion in MLB revenue during that time. As evidence, I note that the NY Yankees were sold to Steinbrenner in the early 70s for $10M. They are worth about 50 times that, payroll and all. This increase is in line with the increase in salaries that others have noticed. If they were making nearly as much money then as they are now, they should have decreased in value over the years, not increased.

This is not to say that free agency has not increased salaries - only to say that the impact is grossly overstated by many.

As for free market issues, I think the baseball is in a unique situation, not analogous to a market where entities are competing against each other. More like a joint venture. So I think anti-trust issues have a relevance to the extent that the owners are suppressing the possiblity of other leagues - not in relation to player issues. (And I don’t think the public wants multiple major leagues).

Rick? It’s not like unlimited free agency would mean every first baseman would be a free agent at the same time. The reason the Yankees, Astros, Rangers, and Mariners wouldn’t be looking to sign Fred McGriff would be because they already have first basemen under contract. Even if every first baseman could be a free agent every time their contract expired, there would still be limited number of teams looking for first basemen whem they become available–which reduces the market value of free agent first basemen.

The way that the current system really restricts the supply of free agents is by tying young players, at less-than-market-value salaries, to the team that drafted them until they have achieved four years of major league service time. Like I said above, that works out great for the good players who reach free agency, since it means their services are more in demand than if they had to compete against all the players who haven’t had enough service time for free agency. It’s a poor deal for the players who are bound to their current teams by the labor agreement and who are being paid less than they would on the open market.

Professional baseball players are in a position that Football and Basketball players can only dream of.
[ul]

  • No drug testing
  • No salary cap
  • Salary arbitration
  • A good developmental league (the NFL has a small one, the NBA is nowhere close)[/ul]Having said this I really do think the owners are a bunch of idiots. Still the players have it pretty good and will remain better off than any other professional athletes even with the new CBA.

Please enlighten me. How many baseball team, or professional sports teams in general, are owned by single individuals?

Nowadays most sports teams are owned by corporate entities or groups of investors.

Adam, Baseball America’s 2002 Directory at page 72 lists the New York Yankees’ principal owner as “George Steinbrenner”, with general partners “Harold Steinbrenner, Henry Steinbrenner and Stephen Swindal.” The limited partners aren’t listed, but I recall one of them being quoted as saying that nothing is more limited than being a limited partner of George Steinbrenner.

It’s damnably conclusive. Consider the owners’ decades-old history of saying free agency would bankrupt them. Consider Bowie Kuhn’s comment, in the lead-up to the 1981 strike, that if the players got their demands, the owners would need to discover “oil under third base” to make ends meet. Consider the Collusion I and Collusion II lawsuits of the late 1980s, both won by the players. (The owners were found to have illegally colluded to hold down the bidding on free agents for a few years.) Consider that outside studies show MLB’s financial situation to be very different from how MLB represents it.

Lords of the Realm by John Helyar, a history of the off-the-field aspects of baseball, is an excellent read on the subject.

I can’t pretend to know as much as y’all obviously do about these issues (either economics or baseball) but as a fan, I do know a couple of things:

  1. As a general proposition, I’m philosophically opposed to unions that “protect” and “assist” workers who clearly need no protection or assistance – like professional entertainers and sports stars. Truth be told, I’m not much for unions anyway.

  2. I’m absolutely in favor of free-market economics. Your services are worth what you can get for them, and if someone is willing to pay you $50 million to pitch, good for you. If your team can pay to get and keep top-notch talent, good for you. In theory.

  3. I say “in theory” because I see that the disparity between rich teams getting richer and (relatively) poor teams that cannot keep up (in terms of salaries) creates a problem for the whole sport – you need teams for the Yankees to play against, or there’s no competition, no fun, and eventually no sport. It’s not like there’s a higher conference to kick the powerhouse team(s) into.

  4. It seems clear the owners are a bunch of lying weasels who have exhibited no desire to be honest about what they’re trying to accomplish. The players may be seen as money-grubbers for holding out for huge salaries and no caps, but at least they’re honest about it. The owners are not.

So in my world – union bad (strike against the players); honesty good (strike against the owners); free market good (strike against the owners); market so free it effectively undermines itself bad (strike against the players).

I call it a draw, but then the real truth will out, and that is this: If the players walk out and stay out, I am going to be seriously ticked as a fan, and they will get the blame because they did the walking. And I doubt seriously I’m the only person who feels that way.

The players may wield the sword because they can walk out, but they’d do well to remember it’s a two-edges sword, and it’s one that’s cut them badly before. When you’re making six or seven or eight figures a year, people tend not to have much sympathy for your financial woes, especially when you’re ruining their fun. That IMO is the bottom line.

The only reason that baseball players don’t appear to need the protection of a union is that they’ve had an effective union for the past few decades. Before they had one, they definitely needed its protection.

Who knows how it wound up that the players have to strike to preserve the status quo, rather than players striking for better terms, and owners locking the players out to obtain givebacks, but that’s the way it is. So it’s silly to blame the players for the simple act of striking, as opposed to the issues.

While I have absolutely zero sympathy for the lying, swindling, contracting owners, I also think it’s time for the MLBPA to step forward and propose a plan for baseball’s long-term competitiveness. They’re big boys now; their union’s not going to be broken. If they’d act like the game is half theirs, which in a real sense it is, that would do a lot to undo much of the criticism directed at them.

The owners are shitty stewards of the game; there’s a real vacuum there that is waiting to be filled. The players can’t do it unilaterally, of course, since the owners are the owners. But if they put proposals on the table that were essentially a master plan for the long-term welfare of the game, no matter what slice of the pie they cut themselves within that plan, it would be far more than the owners have done.

Tom Cruise doesn’t need to be in a union. The other 99.99% of people who call themselves professional actors but who wait tables to make ends meet – that’s a different story. Don’t judge the lives of the invisible majority by what you see of the high-profile few.

RTFIREFLY –

They don’t “appear” to need the protection of a union because they don’t need the protection of a union. They make a minimum of --what? $150K a year? What is the league minimum these days? If the supply and demand arguments made above are correct, there is no reason to think non-unionized players would sink into abject poverty – there are, after all, only so many people who can throw a 95 mph fast-ball, and their services will be in demand regardless of whether there’s a union or not. I am not in favor of busting the union, but neither am I particularly sympathetic to the players’ woes. The reality is that we’re talking about carving up a big money pie among a bunch of people – owners and players – none of whom actually need it. It’s which of the rich will be getting richer. That’s a question that does not excite the sympathies of many – especially those who were planning on spending a Saturday afternoon sitting in the sun, drinking beer, watching the game from the upper deck. They will blame the players because it will be the players who have shut down the games.

CERVAISE –

I assure you I don’t, and this is not a debate about unions, but I think in general it would be easier, not harder, for aspiring actors to get work if they didn’t need to first pay for a SAG card to do it. And I don’t judge the lives of “invisible majority” of major league baseball players by any yardstick – because there isn’t any “invisible majority.” Not a one of them is waiting tables in the off-season to make the rent. Hence my general lack of sympathy to their “plight.” Don’t get me wrong – I hate the owners more, but I think it is only realistic to expect the players to take the blame if they do in fact walk out. Because they will have been the ones who, y’know, walked out.

Jeez, Jodi, when did you trade in the GOP for Karl Marx?

Here’s the deal. You’ve got a small group of supremely talented athletes whose labor creates billions of dollars in revenue for their employers every year. But the workers’ talents are not fungible, so if those guys don’t play the game, all the revenue goes bye-bye. That makes their services extremely valuable to the employers, so in a free market, those workers are going to be compensated at very, very high rates. Do they need to be paid that much money? Who cares? Fact is, their services have extraordinary market value, and it’s perfectly fair that they get compensated in accordance with that market value.

Oh, and re: the minimum salary? It’s somewhere right around $220,000 right now, and they’ve agreed to raise it to $300K next year. That’s pretty serious money, no question. But to get to the majors at all, baseball players have to work through the minors for years–about three to five years, on average, even for those drafted out of college–for ridiculously small salaries and odds greatly stacked against them ever making it to the big show.

If a high school or college player is lucky enough to be drafted in the first dozen or so picks, he will probably end up with a signing bonus large enough to make you set for life, but those signing bonuses drop off very quickly. After the second or third round, you’ll be lucky to have enough to buy a new car. Most minor leaguers work low-paying jobs in the offseason just to make ends meet, unless they’re lucky enough to get sent to one of the winter leagues to continue their development.

Also, how many young players have their baseball careers ended by injuries? I’d guess somewhere around one third, maybe more. So those players have basically wasted years of their lives on a long-shot dream, made essentially no money, and missed the chance to get or complete a college education.

And what of those players who finally get a shot at the big leagues. How many of them stick for more than a couple of seasons? Maybe half? Try living the rest of your life on a couple years worth of salaries in the low six-figure range. And it’s probably only 25% of players who ever make it to free agency, where the real money is, and even most of those players are never going to see more than a couple years of seven-figure salaries. Pretty good dough, but not enough that you’re set for life.

Major league players–especially those who are lucky enough to acquire the necessary service time for free agency and skilled enough to continue playing the game–have basically won the lottery. And you complain that they’re paid more than they “need”? Please. Save the socialism for laborers who could actually benefit from it. The only people who will benefit from it in this case are the owners, and they “need” the money even less than the players do.

Now, having said all that, I think this collective bargaining/lockout/strike stuff is a bunch of unadulterated horseshit. The more I think about this, the more I think the answer is simple: let the owners work out the revenue sharing (preferably the 50-50 team/league split I described above), then let the players and owners freely negotiate salaries just as everybody else does. Tah-dah! Suddenly, you’ve got a free market system where it makes sense (labor), plus a cooperative economic model where it’s required by the nature of the business (revenue sharing). Man, I dig economic efficiency.

Too bad it’s only a pipe dream, since both sides are once again trying to gain the biggest advantage for themselves and screw the other side. What a train wreck. Fortunately, I’m pretty sure both sides know a strike would be disastrous. I would be very surprised if one occurres, though it will (as always) come right down to the wire. Nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Blasphemer! :slight_smile:

Every guy (and girl, for that matter) who makes less than, say, $40K, and who spends $20 to $100 of that $40K for a weekend trip to the ballpark – they care. They see guys who pretty obviously do not need to be paid ungodly sums of money, nevertheless refusing to hold up their end of the bargain (“I buy a ticket, you entertain me”) because they (the players) feel the money is not ungodly enough. That’s how it plays to Joe Public, and I think you have to agree. It’s extremely short-sighted to ask “who cares?” because the public cares and pissing the fans off is the serious risk the players run. And they have to know it.

I agree with the rest of your post. Long live the free market system! [Bloom County] Long live the glorious cockroach revolution! Death to the bourgeois swine-pig! [/Bloom County]

Oh yeah, I ceratainly understand the perception of Joe Public, and recognize that it’s a real problem. That’s why, one way or another, the players and the owners will almost certainly resolve this without a strike–much better to have an imperfect division of a bigger pie than to watch it shrink while arguing over who gets which slice.

Actually, Jodi, it’s “Long live the glorious cockroach rebellion against the great suburban bourgeois oppressor swine-pig!” Gotta get these Bloom County quotes down right. :slight_smile:

[sub]Slam!

I hate revolutionary jargon.[/sub]

minty: the players and owners have been in agreement on the 50-50 revenue sharing for several days at least; the only real sticking point is the luxury tax.

Whatever the minimum is, who do you think negotiated it?

I have no doubt that bidding would continue to be high for a handful of superstars. But the pattern in the mid-1960s, when I was first paying attention to the game, was that salaries fell off pretty quickly from the top few, and I can see no reason why this would fail to be the case now, even if free agency was somehow maintained in the absence of a union.

It would start like this: anyone who was just a little bit better than a minor-leaguer would have zero bargaining leverage, so they’d get a minor-league salary plus a few thousand. Then after a year or two, there’d be a decent supply of marginal major-leaguers making barely above a minor-league salary. They’d undermine the bargaining positions of players who were just a hair better than them. And so forth.

And the resulting reduced expenses to the owners - would this reduce ticket prices? Of course not! Ticket prices aren’t set by player salaries; they’re set by what the market will bear. The Yankees, despite their payroll, are amazingly profitable. Do they give it back to the fans in lower ticket prices? I wouldn’t bet on it.

As long as fans buy tickets at inflated prices, ballclubs will continue to charge high prices. It’s that simple.

Clarification: the last quote in my post was Jodi, not minty.

Well, sure. But one of the ways they justify the inflated prices is to pay ba-zillion dollar players, and you surely will admit that salaries present the largest drain on a club’s resources. So I think it’s as unreasonable to hold the players harmless for $60 tickets as it is to hold the owners harmless for it. As MINTY says, it’s a huge pie, and they’re all geting great big slices – “great big” by the average American’s yardstick, anyway, which is why the chief emotion evoked in the average American baseball fan’s heart at the thought of a strike is, quite simply, disgust. There are no heroes here. Actually, in this regard the OP is elegantly worded: Not who is right, but who is less wrong?

I fully concur.

But in the present situation, it can be argued that there’s a rough parity in power, between the owners and the players. Before the union, it was not like that at all. All I’m arguing is that absent a union, the present parity would likely evaporate in favor of a situation not identical to the status quo ante, but something a lot less different than you’d think.

The players are dreaming if they think a players league can be successful. Team Blue versus Team Red.

A big part of pro football and baseball is the connection between a community and a team, the history.

Try having a pro baseball league without Yankees, Red and White Sox, Cubs, Braves, Dodgers, Mets, etc., and watch it go nowhere.

I find myself siding with the owners on most key issues. The imbalance between big market teams and everybody else seems to get starker and starker.

The owners at least give off the appearance that they care about MLB’s league-wide future viability, with the luxury tax concept. Every issue I see the players’ side crowing about has everything to do with keeping their salaries skyrocketing, and nothing more.

You can say that the Rangers owner didn’t have to pay A-Rod $250 million, and you’d be right. But owners can’t simply exert self-control and refuse to bid exhorbitantly on free-agents. They tried that in the 1980s, and got their knuckles rapped for collusion.

A luxury tax seems more reasonable than a salary cap. You make the call. Think you’re one free-agent superstar away from a title? Go get him; but it will cost you. And the luxury tax money will be spread among the have-nots.

Testing for steroids and other controlled substances is altogether reasonable as well. It goes to the integrity of the game, and the players look like petulant idiots for not conceding it. Yet another display of them appearing not to care about the integrity of the game that butters their bread.

Making the sport’s draft international seems about 40 years overdue.

On the players’ side, I do think that as a concession to allowing the luxury tax, MLB owners should have to adhere to a salary floor. If you own a pro team you will spend at least $65 million a year on player salaries (or whatever figure is worked out).

I saw this quote on the Internet, and found it funny:

Albert Spalding, Owner
Chicago White Stockings, 1881 :smiley:

A passage in this article shows the reality of the imbalance that has developed in baseball:

You show me a sports league as problem-riddled as baseball, that is about to work out a labor agreement going years off into the future that still doesn’t address its fundamental problems, and I’ll show you a league that’s going to continue to flounder.

Give me a break. Salary caps and luxury taxes do not a competitive league make. For instance, the NBA. Not the most competitive league. Only about four teams have a legitimate hope of winning the championship. Oh hey, just about the same as in baseball. Same with the NHL. In fact, the sport everyone points at as having true competitive balance is the NFL. And that has less to do with salary caps than with the nature of the schedule. Crappy teams get an easier schedule, while good teams get a more difficult one. And it changes from year to year. Not only that, but they don’t play a series during the playoffs. Just one game, which means it’s easier for a fluke game to knock a good team out of the running. If you had baseball playing single elimination playoffs, the Yankees don’t make it to the playoffs last year because they’d have been knocked off by the A’s. So let’s stop with this nonsense about how salary caps would make baseball more competitive. It wouldn’t.

Here’s the thing, Milossarian, the owner’s CAN exert self-control and refuse to pay an exorbitant salary for a mediocre player. AND they don’t have to collude to do it. For instance, a good start would be the Angels not signing Erstad for $8 million a year. You are telling me that you can’t get a better outfielder than Erstad for $8 million? Please. Not only that…Hicks paid $100 million more for Rodriguez than the next highest bidder. Meanwhile, Beane can build winners with next to no salary.

The competitve problem in baseball is not revenue disparity. It’s stupidity. The fact is that most of the people running teams don’t understand the game. GM’s overpay for crappy players, simply because a player had a good season last year or was good 10 years ago. The Yankees, for all their revenue advantage, would be in the same situation as the Sox and the Orioles if they didn’t have smart, knowledgeable people running their organization. The franchises with smart people running them win no matter the salary and the franchises with idiots running them lose no matter how much their payroll is. With a little bit of dumb luck thrown in every once in a while.